[SCD] Spirit of the Labyrinth

[TsumiBand]

We call them Death and Taxes players.

Well I wouldn't know about that, I'm a little kid that plays BW Deadguy featuring Exalted Angel. Karakas is like, expensive, man.

I'm just looking forward to people who are unable to strategize around this -1/-1 effect that is supposedly going to blow out a deck with some White creatures in it. People couldn't make Engineered Plague stick against competitive tribal strategies in Legacy, and Golgari Charm is already a thing and it hasn't 'gotcha-d' D&T out of Tier 1, so I guess the only thing to do is sit back and see what actually happens.

[Arsenal]

I still haven't seen a decent answer to "what if you don't have DoN in hand/on board when SoL enters play?" gregtron said something about 7 card opener + 1 cantrip will get you there... I'm not so sure. And if the D&T/Maverick player has the Storm player mulling into DoN, that greatly favors the D&T/Maverick player before the game even begins.

[Lemnear]

I know what's SI, it was rhetoric question. That deck is either (a) killed by the hatecat or (b) doesn't care of it. Esp. with SI on the play, the latter seems quite possible.

I dare to add: The same is true for all flavors of storm-combo as well as decks like Reanimator or the S&T supertype.

The "I have SotL and Thalia in my 75! You shall scoop!" idea is just hilarious narrow-minded

I still haven't seen a decent answer to "what if you don't have DoN in hand/on board when SoL enters play?" gregtron said something about 7 card opener + 1 cantrip will get you there... I'm not so sure. And if the D&T/Maverick player has the Storm player mulling into DoN, that greatly favors the D&T/Maverick player before the game even begins.

I mentioned the fact that you'll be able to see up to 11 cards with your starting grip and a cantrip to find either a DoN, Therapy, Thoughtseize (this should def. see play over Duress now) or a CoV after boarding on the play (on the draw you can still simply fire off a thoughtseize, Probe+Therapy or hold already the DoN in hand). I'm sure that's more than likely to find an out

If you have nothing of those, pretty much the same happens as if D&T keeps a hand without hatebears or a blue deck a Hand without counterspells: You'll likely lose because of your own stupity

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

I don´t think he expect people playing into it but has planed it as a answer to an allready resolved X/1 hatebear. So anything happens after it comes into play and kills
the Sol/Thalia is the combo and then you are hopefully dead. This would explain why they don´t care for enchantment hate.

For card itself I think its good but not broken like shit you have possibilities to answer it with counters like spell Snare, Mass Removal and Spot Removel ok can be protected by
a mother of Runes but can be killed with a well timed response, and ofcourse enchanment hate like Disenchant or Wear/Tear.

Important to mention is that I evaluate it from an everage draw so i don´t take into account the rare nut draws cause everydeck can have them.
So it is highly possible since most Deck which play Sol don´t play counter that you can prevent this thing from being to anoying.

To mention another thing it don´t stop top because you don´t draw a card with it to often in your turn and it don´t effect the the libary manipulation
of it.

so yes its a good sideboard card but I would not overate it to highly.

Best regards Teveshszat

[Arsenal]

Important to mention is that I evaluate it from an everage draw so i don´t take into account the rare nut draws cause everydeck can have them.

Having 1 SoL in your opening 7 is not the nut draw, whereas people's responses of "well, AnT will just go LED, LED, Infernal ftw" seems to be.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

My apologies; tone doesn't really come through in text.

I agree with you, though. Turn 1-2 decks probably won't care about SotL, turn 3 decks will likely have an answer for it from splash-damage for Thalia/Teeg alone, and it will be situationally good against decks that can either find an answer for it (Omnitell) or have a solid backup plan (Elves). It's a fine addition to the Hate Bear suite, but it's not insta-win against anyone.

I think that IF this creature sees play and IF it makes an 12BearPost.dec possible, then only it'll be reasonable to tinker with storm's gameplan. But even now I see two possibilities: a move to more robust ANT-like builds with several removal main (like Slosh uses) that plan to win through the Spirit/Thalia/Teeg and the ones with even faster gameplan that wish to win before the cmc2 hatebear etb. This one is quite harder to achieve, as 50 % of games you won't be starting, meaning you got one and only turn to win before cat/legend is dropped.

I'm tempted to keep my Savannahs and build something with a turn2 "I hate this format" play, be it hatebear, RiP or SFM.

Hatebears hinder combo.
Teeg and Thalia hinder control.
SFM hinders aggro.
RiP hinders any Goyf.dec existing.

Sounds good?


EDIT:

I still haven't seen a decent answer to "what if you don't have DoN in hand/on board when SoL enters play?" gregtron said something about 7 card opener + 1 cantrip will get you there... I'm not so sure. And if the D&T/Maverick player has the Storm player mulling into DoN, that greatly favors the D&T/Maverick player before the game even begins.

They won't sb ONE DoN. Also, they won't sb ONLY DoN.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The "I have SotL and Thalia in my 75! You shall scoop!" idea is just hilarious narrow-minded

You may think it's funny now but when you face it at a tournament and you are at 0 life with 2 lands out and only a ponder cast against D&T, I'm sure you will change your opinion of what funny is. It's gonna be brutal for a while.



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[gregtron]

I still haven't seen a decent answer to "what if you don't have DoN in hand/on board when SoL enters play?" gregtron said something about 7 card opener + 1 cantrip will get you there... I'm not so sure. And if the D&T/Maverick player has the Storm player mulling into DoN, that greatly favors the D&T/Maverick player before the game even begins.

I mean it's nothing new. D&T and Maverick have had had access to E-Tutor + Canonist for a long time, and Maverick has pretty much always been able to go mana dork into turn 2 Zenith for Teeg. ANT vs. Maverick will still be miserable, and ANT vs. D&T will still be a post-board coinflip.

And to answer your question specifically, my idea would be to grind (which ANT is more than capable of doing) with Therapy and Thoughtseize until I can find Massacre, Pyroclasm, or Burning Wish, and be glad they decided to cast SotL instead of Canonist. I'm not saying it won't be a thorn in my side if it happens, just that storm players who can't win through handicaps are not storm players for long.

[Arsenal]

As a Maverick player, if I'm able to force AnT to switch into grind-mode, I'm feeling pretty good about that game. And if this is postboard, I'm feeling even better.

[gregtron]

As a Maverick player, if I'm able to force AnT to switch into grind-mode, I'm feeling pretty good about that game. And if this is postboard, I'm feeling even better.

Oh definitely. But you don't even remotely need SotL to do so.

[Arsenal]

Oh definitely. But you don't even remotely need SotL to do so.

But SoL cuts off your ability to come back from a losing board state (via cantripping into answers). As a Maverick player, I never think I'm "set" just because I have a Mom + Canonist or Mom + other hatebear... and AnT's 12-16 draw spells is the reason why.

[Lemnear]

You may think it's funny now but when you face it at a tournament and you are at 0 life with 2 lands out and only a ponder cast against D&T, I'm sure you will change your opinion of what funny is. It's gonna be brutal for a while.



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I don't see a problem losing to a card in case x & y happens ... that's the nature of the game. I'm really curious what you think about the storm player in your scenario doing in the meanwhile and what the other 6 cards in his hand are at this point.

You can bet people would fire off their Ponders and Preordains for carddisadvantage to dig through their deck to either find a DoN or sculpt a setup to storm out.

Thalia is a threat. SotL is just an annoyance that MAY cast enough brakes onto storm that it and other creatures are able to win the race here.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

As a Maverick player, if I'm able to force AnT to switch into grind-mode, I'm feeling pretty good about that game. And if this is postboard, I'm feeling even better.

Depends on what you mean with "grinding". If you rely on one-for-one trades, then yes, Mav has advantage. If, on the other hand, you're more likely to meet one DoN after another that wipes away your whole "turn1 Mor, turn2 Thalia, turn3 hatecat, lolololol, gotcha!" team, or if there will be more and more Pyroclasms and Massacres and w/e else all over the meta, then I guess it won't be a grinding you'd love.

Also, I like how there's a red summon uncommon that eats the above board and leaves a 3/2 body behind. I guess that Slosh's idea to play Sulfur Elemental in ANT's sb was correct.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

Having 1 SoL in your opening 7 is not the nut draw, whereas people's responses of "well, AnT will just go LED, LED, Infernal ftw" seems to be.

Ofcourse one Sol is not a nut draw never mentioned that. Would think for me a nut draw holds a combination of Vial,Thalia Sol, Mother a Wasteland a Port and a Plain or Fetchland.

Mfg Teveshszat

[Arsenal]

Depends on what you mean with "grinding". If you rely on one-for-one trades, then yes, Mav has advantage. If, on the other hand, you're more likely to meet one DoN after another that wipes away your whole "turn1 Mor, turn2 Thalia, turn3 hatecat, lolololol, gotcha!" team, or if there will be more and more Pyroclasms and Massacres and w/e else all over the meta, then I guess it won't be a grinding you'd love.

Also, I like how there's a red summon uncommon that eats the above board and leaves a 3/2 body behind. I guess that Slosh's idea to play Sulfur Elemental in ANT's sb was correct.

Yes, gregtron stated that AnT would switch into Therapy-Thoughtseize (AnT doesn't play Thoughtseize btw) grind mode, that's the definition of 1-for-1 that I was using. And again, if you don't have DoN in your hand when SoL enters play, you're just hoping that you naturally draw into one? And if you do open with DoN, and they drop Canonist/Teeg, then you do what, hope to get another one?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello,



Ofcourse one Sol is not a nut draw never mentioned that. Would think for me a nut draw holds a combination of Vial,Thalia Sol, Mother a Wasteland a Port and a Plain or Fetchland.

Mfg Teveshszat

Yep.


I'd love to build something like this:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Lolcat
3 Thalia
3 Gaddock
4 Cannonist
4 SFM
4 RiP
3-4 best equips

Where's your format now?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I was speaking of scenarios that include both on the table. It's even worse if one of D&T's lands is Port. Just the 2 bears being on the table gives them a 4 turn clock. That is scary. If they fear DoN they will just try to keep you off black mana.

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[Lemnear]

Yes, gregtron stated that AnT would switch into Therapy-Thoughtseize (AnT doesn't play Thoughtseize btw) grind mode, that's the definition of 1-for-1 that I was using. And again, if you don't have DoN in your hand when SoL enters play, you're just hoping that you naturally draw into one? And if you do open with DoN, and they drop Canonist/Teeg, then you do what, hope to get another one?

All the examples in this thread go iffy. I answered that question a few posts above (likely burried on the last page with the current posting speed in this thread atm)

[danyul]

This card makes me mad for exactly 1 reason: There is no foil printing of Virtue's Ruin.

[Lemnear]

I was speaking of scenarios that include both on the table. It's even worse if one of D&T's lands is Port. Just the 2 bears being on the table gives them a 4 turn clock. That is scary. If they fear DoN they will just try to keep you off black mana.

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Thalia/cannonist + SotL? Ok, that means turn 3 and which was cast first? Allowing the opponent to storm out or giving him options to cantrip further is the question here. How should a deck keep storm off dropping fetchlands or Petals?