[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Barook]

How has been Holy Light been in testing? Too slow due the 3 mana requirement (4 with Thalia)?

IF we splash for black, I think Persecution and Bob are the main attractions. Becoming too greedy weakens our manabase too much and adding T1 discard is too greedy.

With the new cards in the pool, we have to ask ourselves: How can we effectively address problem match-ups without sacrificing too much game against other decks.

[raikenxy]

How has been Holy Light been in testing? Too slow due the 3 mana requirement (4 with Thalia)?

IF we splash for black, I think Persecution and Bob are the main attractions. Becoming too greedy weakens our manabase too much and adding T1 discard is too greedy.

With the new cards in the pool, we have to ask ourselves: How can we effectively address problem match-ups without sacrificing too much game against other decks.

I personally don't think death and taxes has any problem match ups in the current field outside of glass cannon turn one combos. If you get turn one'd by any deck there's nothing we can do about it. If anythibg death and taxes has a lot of even match ups that are determined very much by play skill oh each opponent. The deck list shake up after tnn was adding flyers to the list and honestly they do a fine enough job of combating tnn. Spirit and brimaz will make their own respective ways into the deck but I don't see the core build/mana base/colors needing to be changed at all. Zealous persecution, perish, discard are all options we are opened up to with black but at what cost? You have to side out Thalia or play them alongside of Thalia at extra cost and then hope your two ports and one plains hand doesn't keep a dead card like zealous per auction from being played when you need it. By splashing colors you will no longer be playing death and taxes, dead guy ale is already a deck which is beginning to form it's strategy off of ours but we don't have the disadvantages they do of having to side out Thalia to use cool good black cards and being vulnerable to stifle and wasteland

[Barbed Blightning]

Only Jund and Elves are both common enough and problematic enough to warrant any changes to the deck, and we've received two new cards to hate them out

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Looooooooo]

Only Jund and Elves are both common enough and problematic enough to warrant any changes to the deck, and we've received two new cards to hate them out

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

I can agree for the spirit, but the cat?! Seriously, only because it doesn't die to PS don't make him good...

- L

[Barbed Blightning]

I can agree for the spirit, but the cat?! Seriously, only because it doesn't die to PS don't make him good...

- L

You are fucking kidding me, right?

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Looooooooo]

You are fucking kidding me, right?

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

No, tell where i'm wrong when i say that we have at least 3 better 3-drops sticking to monW...

- L

[DavidHernandez]

Before putting something like "Holy Light" in the deck, I think I'd rather run Silverblade Paladin. Why not be more aggressive and screw the defense. Let the opponent worry that you're swinging with a double-strike, Sword-equipped Thalia with Mother of Runes backup.

Also, regarding a "splash for black," then you're talking about Dead Guy decks. This turns into the same argument we had about splashing green and turning it into Maverick.

Let D&T be D&T. A Thalia-based White deck with utility creatures that shuts down opponents' resources while bashing their heads in.

[Barbed Blightning]

No, tell where i'm wrong when i say that we have at least 3 better 3-drops sticking to monW...

- L

Brimaz, as Finn has pointed out, breaks parity. The tokens he generates, especially in the Jund matchup, give us some breathing room. Suddenly, Liliana's -2 isn't as backbreaking. Suddenly, most of their removal isn't as powerful. Being a 3/4 means he survives most non-goyf, non-batterskull creatures, and survives any single red burn spell played in Legacy, aside from Fireblast. Jitte does not outright kill him, unlike most of our creatures, and his tokens serve as excellent equipment carriers. In a combo matchup, he becomes an insane finisher, thanks to his incremental power over the course of a game.

Furthermore, he and the tokens he creates make combat no longer fair. Attacking for free, especially against anything aggro, is a huge deal. Combined with wilt-leaf liege (or any crusade effect), he becomes a Tarmogoyf that spits out Grizzly Bears. Brimaz on his own will seal up the tempo match.

The guy is a tank. What other 3 drops can compare to him? Flickerwisp? Evasion is nice, but he dies so easily nowadays. Mirran Crusader? Swinging past goyfs is admittedly nice, and with equips he is insane, but he lacks resilience and dies if he swings into a TNN, whereas Brimaz does not. Mangara? Though he is the marquee card of the deck, he is by no means on the curve for his P/T.

Brimaz simply gives us another form of disruption: choking up combat. He compliments Serra Avenger with his vigilance and, while he lacks flying, he can hold back ground troops like a boss. And did I mention we can bounce this silly bastard with Karakas? That value alone vs control is fucking bonkers.

So, that's where you're wrong. I'm playing two, over the godawful main decked Aven Mindcensors that were the standard. Feel free to not if you like, but I honestly think he has some potential in this deck.

[DavidHernandez]

Brimaz, as Finn has pointed out, breaks parity. The tokens he generates, especially in the Jund matchup, give us some breathing room. Suddenly, Liliana's -2 isn't as backbreaking. Suddenly, most of their removal isn't as powerful. Being a 3/4 means he survives most non-goyf, non-batterskull creatures, and survives any single red burn spell played in Legacy, aside from Fireblast. Jitte does not outright kill him, unlike most of our creatures, and his tokens serve as excellent equipment carriers. In a combo matchup, he becomes an insane finisher, thanks to his incremental power over the course of a game.

Furthermore, he and the tokens he creates make combat no longer fair. Attacking for free, especially against anything aggro, is a huge deal. Combined with wilt-leaf liege (or any crusade effect), he becomes a Tarmogoyf that spits out Grizzly Bears. Brimaz on his own will seal up the tempo match.

The guy is a tank. What other 3 drops can compare to him? Flickerwisp? Evasion is nice, but he dies so easily nowadays. Mirran Crusader? Swinging past goyfs is admittedly nice, and with equips he is insane, but he lacks resilience and dies if he swings into a TNN, whereas Brimaz does not. Mangara? Though he is the marquee card of the deck, he is by no means on the curve for his P/T.

Brimaz simply gives us another form of disruption: choking up combat. He compliments Serra Avenger with his vigilance and, while he lacks flying, he can hold back ground troops like a boss. And did I mention we can bounce this silly bastard with Karakas? That value alone vs control is fucking bonkers.

So, that's where you're wrong. I'm playing two, over the godawful main decked Aven Mindcensors that were the standard. Feel free to not if you like, but I honestly think he has some potential in this deck.

^^ THIS!!!

Can't wait to get mine in-hand. Dude looks like a house! Pre-sale cost is over $22 per copy, but I'm not getting dragged into pre-sale buys. Did that with a few cards and they all lost value over 50% I'll wait a couple of weeks after release and buy them for $10 each. Or less.

This guy is card advantage all day!

[Myelectronicdays]

^^ THIS!!!

Can't wait to get mine in-hand. Dude looks like a house! Pre-sale cost is over $22 per copy, but I'm not getting dragged into pre-sale buys. Did that with a few cards and they all lost value over 50% I'll wait a couple of weeks after release and buy them for $10 each. Or less.

This guy is card advantage all day!

not to mention i like meekstone more and more in the deck.. and another big vig creature is a major plus.

[Finn]

Well, TNN can still end you. I am hoping that the Spirit if the Labyrinth will inhibit those decks enough to make the changes we will have to make (and will very likely include fewer answers to an equipped TNN) a good deal.

[PendelSteven]

It can also stop Griselbrand from going nuts.

The MD is probably too tight to fit it in, but it certainly deserves a place in the 75. It's just too good against the dominant card of the format. Vialing it in with Brainstorm/Jacestorm on the stack is a major blowout since it can generate up to 2/3 cards of pure CA.

It was obviously meant to stop Griselbrand in Modern or otherwise to deal with Sphinx's Revelation pre-emptively.

I want to say one thing for you: the current Junk Elves! is not, I repeat, not a combodeck primarily. You still have to dodge DRS, NO and several other threads the deck sends your way, including cards like Thoughtseize. Good luck!

[DragoFireheart]

Spirit looks like a card WotC made specifically for this deck. It's almost like a employee picked up DnT and was trying to brainstorm another hatebear to add to it.

[Barbed Blightning]

It was obviously meant to stop Griselbrand in Modern or otherwise to deal with Sphinx's Revelation pre-emptively.

I want to say one thing for you: the current Junk Elves! is not, I repeat, not a combodeck primarily. You still have to dodge DRS, NO and several other threads the deck sends your way, including cards like Thoughtseize. Good luck!

Thoughtseize? Not Therapy?

And both of Elves' win cons play like combos (NO/GSZ for Hoofy, Glimpse). DRS is a laughable threat against us (yes, I understand the "machinegun" effect, but both decks run few Instants/Sorceries).

I agree that it is not a pureblood combo deck (look to ANT, TES, Reanimator) but I think your analysis (and offhanded "good luck!") is erroneous.

[frameset]

Spirit looks like a card WotC made specifically for this deck. It's almost like a employee picked up DnT and was trying to brainstorm another hatebear to add to it.

"Brainstorm" another hate bear? Great pun. :-)

[Mr. Froggy]

I don't see Serra Avenger as a "hatebear" per se, more of a beatstick of sorts. She closes out games so fast.

[Barbed Blightning]

So I've just picked up the deck, and perhaps from my days from playing Scars block sealed, I've decided to test out Porcelain Legionnaire. I'm not entirely sure how or if it will fit in (especially with Death and Taxes about to shake up with [cards]Spirit of the Labyrinth[/card]), but it seems like it fits in with the undercosted "Hatebear" aspect similar to Serra Avenger, and with 3 Power First Strike, there's a long list of creatures that opponent's don't want to stand in its way. It also fits in the Aether Vial curve, and it can be searched with Enlightened Tutor.

Thoughts? I'll let people know how my testing goes, but I wanted to put the idea out to get feedback.

There's really no comparison--Serra is better. Evasion > First Strike and vigilance to boot, plus she's got a big butt.

Believe me, if I could jam a set of Kazandu Blademaster I would. But this is legacy--we need more than just pet cards.

@Froggy: in a way she is--she turns combat into a one-sided affair. With Brimaz entering the mix, we'll see how she does, numbers wise.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[RecklessEmbermage]

This has been doing well on Cockatrice:


2 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 AEther Vial
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Serra Avenger
2 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares


SB: 3 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Cataclysm

As others have mentioned, Cavern is a more elegant way of casting confidant than swamp. One thing to consider is to play 2 more caverns, orzhov pontiff in the side instead of zealous persecution and up the number of humans (maybe Mangara over avenger f.x.). This would of course not accommodate for the hand disruption.

[Barook]

In what match-ups does Wilt-Leaf Liege come in? Because Jund is pretty much non-existant on MODO right now after TNN decks wiped it out.

[Barbed Blightning]

In what match-ups does Wilt-Leaf Liege come in? Because Jund is pretty much non-existant on MODO right now after TNN decks wiped it out.

Jund was it primarily but any BGx with Liliana/Hymn Liege is a house against. Pox, because lol. Tempo, too--mostly as an indomitable beater.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.