All B/R update speculation.

[skinnytalls]

I my opinion tnn should not be band. I like play with and against this card, and have lost to it, won with it, Ive killed it forced opponents to discard it and swept entire boards just to kill it. I enjoy playing this card because its very powerful and pretty fun. A great card in my deck as a two of. not powerful enough to have as a four of tho...
The fact of the matter is jund and dnt still are performing well and top 8ing big tournements. Jund has 6 top 8 appearances in the last four ssg opens
In the past two months tnn played in %22.7 of decks (http://www.mtgtop8.com/topcards), and the last 4 ssg opens top 8 (32 decks) 8 of then had the Nemesis so 1/4 top 8 decks and the average. so its not dominating the meta by any means.
tnn is a fun card for me at least. I would hate to see it go.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

They did "say" storm, but in my mind Tendrils is the main point of contention to the claim.

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[Lemnear]

They did "say" storm, but in my mind Tendrils is the main point of contention to the claim.

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I'm pretty sure it is Mind's Desire

[DragoFireheart]

I'm pretty sure it is Mind's Desire

That card is extremely stupid. It got banned BEFORE the set was released.

Mind's Desire

Make a Vintage deck but one where you can play four. Experience a major orgasm and drop dead.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't even allow minds desire to be a part of my magic vocabulary. Tendrils, at one point was a bannable card. Now, not so much.

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[Lord Seth]

I think they actually said the Storm mechanic was a mistake, not Tendrils of Agony (which just so happens to have the Storm mechanic on it). This is curious, as this admission of making the Storm mistake came years before Flusterstorm was printed. I like Flusterstorm a lot, don't get me wrong, but it just goes to show that Wizards makes up whatever reason/excuse that's convienient for them at the time, then proceeds on like nothing ever happened.

Unlike the other Storm cards, though, you can't really build a deck around Flusterstorm, and it's a purely reactive card. It doesn't really hit any of the checkmarks as to why Storm was considered a problem in the first place.

[Arsenal]

Jund has 6 top 8 appearances in the last four ssg opens

Now you're just making stuff up. The most recent 4 SCG Opens:

SCG Columbus (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12694) - ZERO Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Orlando (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653) - ONE Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Indy (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12597) - ZERO Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Las Vegas (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12428) - TWO Jund decks in the Top 16.

That's a total of THREE Jund decks in the Top 16 of the most recent 4 SCG Opens... combined. This is the 2nd time I've provided data on the death of Jund post-TNN, but people still refuse to accept the data as reality and live in some fantasy land where Jund still matters and is making all of these Top 8 finishes. Cool.

[Lemnear]

That card is extremely stupid. It got banned BEFORE the set was released.

Mind's Desire

Make a Vintage deck but one where you can play four. Experience a major orgasm and drop dead.

I agree. The day WotC makes the stupid decision to unban or unrestrict Mind's Desire, I'll break the respective format in a half within 2 weeks.

[HSCK]

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=301&meta=39

I think he was using this as the data point.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

How many Death and Taxes decks were there in those recent tournaments?

[Arsenal]

http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=301&meta=39

I think he was using this as the data point.

Then he should stop using incorrect data? It's not my fault he didn't source properly. The SCG Invitational is not the same as a SCG Open (you know that, he may not though). Also, even if we weren't seperating the two, I only count five top 8s in SCG events, not the claimed six. So again, making stuff up.

How many Death and Taxes decks were there in those recent tournaments?

Three, just like Jund. Because why would you want to play Jund and D&T and lose to TNN when you can just play TNN and win? At least D&T still has great game versus combo like Sneak & Show, so it has that going for it I suppose. Jund just loses to combo and now loses to midrange decks (even though Jund is designed to beat them).

[skinnytalls]

Now you're just making stuff up. The most recent 4 SCG Opens:

SCG Columbus (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12694) - ZERO Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Orlando (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12653) - ONE Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Indy (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12597) - ZERO Jund decks in the Top 16.

SCG Las Vegas (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12428) - TWO Jund decks in the Top 16.

That's a total of THREE Jund decks in the Top 16 of the most recent 4 SCG Opens... combined. This is the 2nd time I've provided data on the death of Jund post-TNN, but people still refuse to accept the data as reality and live in some fantasy land where Jund still matters and is making all of these Top 8 finishes. Cool.

srry three decks i saw was jund depths and junk depths in there. should of taken more time on that.... my bad

[HSCK]

Yeah, the Invi is diff. Prior to last week though, TNN was definitely ebbing, isn't that a sign things are the way they're supposed to be? UWR Delver only runs 2 a piece so in Orlando's top 8 there were 4, Indy had 6, Vegas had 2. People saw this, and left out whatever they were doing and it saw a resurgence in Columbus. That doesn't seem all that broken, which is really what you're aiming to ban.

[Lord Seth]

No one should be appealing to Invitational results anyway, because 50% of what decides those results are from the Standard format. This makes them quite useless for trying to get a gauge on the Legacy metagame... or the Standard metagame, for that matter.

[Dice_Box]

So we are back in the same old routine again. Joy. Lets see if I can do some summing up then.

The issues with TNN have never been it's individual power. Its a lighting bolt on a stick. Nothing fancy about that. It can Maze as well but that is not often done. No the problems arise when you add other cards into the mix. Its like a Mogwai until you add water. Then all the shit starts happening. On its own its kind of cute, add past mistakes and well...

The main push to see the card gone has always been over its design and rarely its power. This is legacy, we have seen worse cards powerwise before. But then you read the Unhinged style, bullshit ass text box on the card and you see its not a power issue, its the fact that the card itself is a joke. A total joke. And we all know it was made to sell boxes, not for EDH. No one in EDH cheered about a 3/1 with no abilities.

Then add the issues that have come from pushing non Blue decks out of the top tables. Maverick, Jund, DnT to a point too. They are all going away. It does not matter how many TNN end up in the top at the end of the day, it matters how many non Blue decks they bend over on the way there.

The real crime here is that if they really wanted me to buy that box, Force reprinted with the new MTGO art would have made me grab 4 too. They did not need to hand another powerhouse to blue to push sales. They can print money just fine many other ways. So stupid, so very very stupid.

Oh and one last thing, I own 4, they are in my fish deck. So me saying this has nothing to do about me not having the card. I honestly feel this way even though I have money to lose if it was banned.

[Feaor]

I don't TNN really ebbed so much as people switched to playing unfair so they don't have to slog through TNN battles. I think it was the SCG Indy Open where they asked the top 8 if they had adjusted their sideboard to fight TNN and basically everyone was either playing it or said that the deck they were playing didn't care about TNN. Its certainly not nearly as blatant as Mental Misstep and SotF but I think its a sign of format warping when a large percentage of the format is either playing TNN or electing to not deal with it and play unfair.

[Arsenal]

Then add the issues that have come from pushing non Blue decks out of the top tables. Maverick, Jund, DnT to a point too. They are all going away. It does not matter how many TNN end up in the top at the end of the day, it matters how many non Blue decks they bend over on the way there.

This is what I've been saying and using data to show how non-blue creature decks have essentially vanished post-TNN. But despite data proving my claims, people are making things up out of thin air to support their claims. Not much I can do about magical data.

[DragoFireheart]

This is what I've been saying and using data to show how non-blue creature decks have essentially vanished post-TNN. But despite data proving my claims, people are making things up out of thin air to support their claims. Not much I can do about magical data.

I'd buy TNN but I got burned on SotF last time. Waiting for Monday.

[Megadeus]

I'd buy TNN but I got burned on SotF last time. Waiting for Monday.

What were SotF at its height?

[Dice_Box]

This is what I've been saying and using data to show how non-blue creature decks have essentially vanished post-TNN. But despite data proving my claims, people are making things up out of thin air to support their claims. Not much I can do about magical data.

I understand mate. The post was not directed at you.