All B/R update speculation.

[Arsenal]

On MTGO however, there is no round clock per say; players have their own chess timers. Therefore, despite Billy taking an extra minute per draw step while trying to figure out how he gets around Counterbalance/Top lock, the MTGO Miracles player is still sitting pretty on his time left for the round.

Although I understand that it'd be impractical for paper (too many priority passes, etc), I really wish that paper Magic could implement a chess-clock like MTGO has. It would be soooo much better.

[Barook]

I take it you're probably the guy who'd play Maverick against a combo-infested meta: someone who thinks that just because a deck has done well in the past means that it should always perform well regardless of the meta. If various flavors of non-TNN midrange aren't holding up to snuff in the current meta, then don't play them and don't bitch about how TNN is warping the format because you won't adapt as a player and play a more suitable deck.

Why are people always trying to drag Maverick into the TNN discussion? The deck has been pretty unviable for a while now because Shardless BUG, Jund, Miracles, Elves and other combo decks, among other things, shit all over it.

Who's to say that everyone just didn't jump onto the TNN-bandwagon and over-saturate the meta from R1 to Top 8?

If that was truely the case, wouldn't that warrant an ban asap, similiar to Flash?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Flash wasn't the players' fault, it was the DCI's for unbanning it. Honestly, I can't find drugs that good and I'm in Colorado. Also, I'm torn between what I want to happen with TNN. My birthday is Feb 3rd and I'm worried about it being banned and I'm worried about it not being banned. It's a real dilemma. I suppose either way it's a gift...

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[Arsenal]

Flash wasn't the players' fault, it was the DCI's for unbanning it.

True-Name Nemesis wasn't the players' fault either, it was Wizards' for printing it/wording it as a static ability.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

It's like you don't even read my posts. I've stated numerous times that I've been on UW Stoneblade (SCG Dallas list to be specific) since November 1st, 2013; yep, I'm definitely the guy still running Illusions-Donate because it was good in the past . And you know what, people have been playing a more suitable deck for the meta... it's called SFM-TNN. Why? Because it's the best thing you can be doing in Legacy right now; you crush non-TNN decks, you are even with other SFM-TNN decks, you are favored against Storm combo and you are maginally unfavored against A+B combo.

Also, you were in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread when pretty much everyone (except HSCK) agreed that thecouncil's data was going to be the reference point used when citing data. This very website uses thecouncil's data for it's DTB/DTW distinction, but now all of a sudden, the data may not be valid because you don't know the exact number of SFM-TNN players that entered SCG Columbus? Really?

Perhaps my point wasn't clear regarding the data.

Top 8s don't mean shit without knowing what percentage of players were running TNN, what percentage were running decks bad against TNN, and what percentage were running decks good against TNN during the swiss rounds.

For example if 200 people attended [insert recent SCG event here] and about 150 people were playing various TNN.decs, 25 others having a 60-40% matchup against TNN.decs, and 25 more having a 40%-60% matchup against TNN.decs, then I wouldn't be surprised if Top 8 or Top 16 were flooded with TNN.dec, because the swiss rounds were flooded with them.

Conversely, if TNN.dec only had 50 representatives and the other 2 75, then I'd be more concerned.

[Arsenal]

Perhaps my point wasn't clear regarding the data.

Top 8s don't mean shit without knowing what percentage of players were running TNN, what percentage were running decks bad against TNN, and what percentage were running decks good against TNN during the swiss rounds.

For example if 200 people attended [insert recent SCG event here] and about 150 people were playing various TNN.decs, 25 others having a 60-40% matchup against TNN.decs, and 25 more having a 40%-60% matchup against TNN.decs, then I wouldn't be surprised if Top 8 or Top 16 were flooded with TNN.dec, because the swiss rounds were flooded with them.

Conversely, if TNN.dec only had 50 representatives and the other 2 75, then I'd be more concerned.

Then we can't cite any data as there isn't a website that currently offers that level of detail you require. In fact, this very website should do away with the DTB/DTW sections as they pull from thecouncil's Top 8/16 finishes.

I find it curious that everyone was cool with using thecouncil's data (except HSCK) in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread when TNN was first released and the data didn't show it's true impact yet, but now that we're 3 months into TNN-world, and the data clearly shows it warping the format, now all of a sudden thecouncil's data isn't good enough?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Now, now, I never said it was. All I was trying to say is that the players seem to be getting some blame that is undeserved. I play esperblade and Esper death blade and I do so because I think it's the best strategy for me to win. I can't hate other players for feeling the same. Winning is essentially the reason for sanctioned play.

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[Dice_Box]

I am not going to blame a player for using all the tools open too them, I will on the other hand openly comment when I see stupidity in booster packs. I would think almost everyone else is the same.

[rxavage]

This thread should be renamed "Arsenal's crusade against TNN". I believe if he spent as much time and effort into beating his nemesis he would be successful.

[testing32]

This thread should be renamed "Arsenal's crusade against TNN". I believe if he spent as much time and effort into beating his nemesis he would be successful.

We will look back on this a few years from now and just laugh. Kind of like the people that wanted to ban goyf.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Then we can't cite any data as there isn't a website that currently offers that level of detail you require. In fact, this very website should do away with the DTB/DTW sections as they pull from thecouncil's Top 8/16 finishes.

You do realize they are called Decks to Beat, right? That is, if a deck does well enough in one tournament to have one or more Top 8s, then, more than likely, many others will pick up that deck for the next tournament, and thus simply copying the best list for that deck won't do you any good: you have to beat it with a deck better suited for that meta.

In all honesty, the data you presented from the council indeed shows a weak trend towards SFM+TNN.dec dominating the format, but I believe the data is inconclusive at the moment, simply because of a lack of knowledge on how to fight TNN+SFM.dec. If after a month or two this trend continues, despite players adapting to fight it, then yeah: it'd deserve a ban.

[DragoFireheart]

This thread should be renamed "Arsenal's crusade against TNN". I believe if he spent as much time and effort into beating his nemesis he would be successful.

Ironically all he has to do is play TNN himself. Not much effort required.

On one hand, the card is silly and I want to see it banned. On the other, it makes the BladeControl archtype significantly better, which gives me an erection.

EDIT: WoTC, hurry up and decide if you are going to ban it or not. I want my discount if you are going to ban it.

[Lemnear]

This thread should be renamed "Arsenal's crusade against TNN". I believe if he spent as much time and effort into beating his nemesis he would be successful.

What a nonsense. He said he runs SFM + TNN himself and is very active in the Stoneblade thread. That still does not mean he's not allowed to be annoyed of his own boardstates at times and the way some Blade-mirrors play out. It's possible to play a deck and say "this deck is too good for the format and that's unhealthy".

It's like you won't hear me claiming that Mind's Desire is a safe card to unban

[Dice_Box]

I think people have done much to adapt though. It's not like the card was spoiled and everyone did nothing. The price of Humility jumped, everyone spoke of Jund being the answer, others said just play faster than TNN and in the end it would all fix itself.

Well the outcome has been that to adapt, most people are leaning on either Race it or Join it as the path of choice. That is a valid form of adoption but it just kind of had to be since over all, there are very few valid answers to the card right now that are able to be used in decks that can be consistent over 10 or more rounds.

[Higgs]

We will look back on this a few years from now and just laugh. Kind of like the people that wanted to ban goyf.

I keep my sig to remind people to take a pause before making all-knowing claims :)

[DragoFireheart]

I keep my sig to remind people to take a pause before making all-knowing claims :)

I hope my other all-knowing claim is also false.

Sometimes being wrong is success.

[Zilla]

Ironically all he has to do is play TNN himself. Not much effort required.

Speaking of irony, he's said repeatedly that he plays SFM + TNN in his primary deck, so it's not like he doesn't know how to beat TNN. It is possible to put aside self interest and come to the conclusion that a card is bad for the format even while you're doing well with it.

[DragoFireheart]

Speaking of irony, he's said repeatedly that he plays SFM + TNN in his primary deck, so it's not like he doesn't know how to beat TNN. It is possible to put aside self interest and come to the conclusion that a card is bad for the format even while you're doing well with it.

This is also a valid conclusion. Isn't this fun!?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I think people have done much to adapt though. It's not like the card was spoiled and everyone did nothing. The price of Humility jumped, everyone spoke of Jund being the answer, others said just play faster than TNN and in the end it would all fix itself.

Well the outcome has been that to adapt, most people are leaning on either Race it or Join it as the path of choice. That is a valid form of adoption but it just kind of had to be since over all, there are very few valid answers to the card right now that are able to be used in decks that can be consistent over 10 or more rounds.

That's the thing: all those adaptations were for the worse. As far as I know only Rector Fit runs Humility; Jund midrange is clearly not the answer it was billed as; and racing TNN is hard when it's got a Batterskull backing it up. Hence why I believe that all forms of control are in their prime in this TNN-heavy meta: they can attack TNN better than any other archetype except maybe combo.

[DragoFireheart]

That's the thing: all those adaptations were for the worse. As far as I know only Rector Fit runs Humility; Jund midrange is clearly not the answer it was billed as; and racing TNN is hard when it's got a Batterskull backing it up. Hence why I believe that all forms of control are in their prime in this TNN-heavy meta: they can attack TNN better than any other archetype except maybe combo.

I've heard that DnT can also handle TNN-decks (yes I did that). It has flyers and other shenanigans so it can handle it. Miracle is obvious as you said. Combo decks, not so much since the TNN are overloading on anti-combo deck sideboard material.

EDIT: I found something