Miracle Control

[twndomn]

Hello,

The 2 needles main are engough to find the one I need against vial, equipment, sneak/show and other planeswalker.
I think its worth a try even without the Tutor and is more mana effiecent then EE which can only hit the
vial and CmC 2 creatures in my current build but against creatures we have massremoval and EE don´t solve the
problem of a resolved planeswalker if we don´t have creatures or counters at hand.
Another plus is that a needle willnot be dead to the Counterbalance mechanic and I don´t have to splash
a color or to to maximize the card effectivness which I have to do with 2 colors for EE and 1 for
most other artifact hates.
Best Regards Teveshszat

If you have a problem with the contents of another user's post, report it. Don't comment on it here; it only derails the conversation. Thanks. -zilla

Second, you don't understand the concept of control. You typed what you typed because you did not watch Oarsman (Joe) running Miracle enough. You should watch at least 5 hours of it.

I really dislike the cheese of winning with a Blood Moon, although I'll admit that I've been having success recently with it (it's hot against Jund Depths). I don't like Trinket Mage here since the body isn't really worth too much. I'd rather pack more Cliques or Snapcasters. If you want a tutor effect, Enlightened Tutor is an instant, low mana, finds enchantments, and can be Snapcaster'd back.

Honestly, as Miracles, don't focus on beating their mana bases. Your number one goal against many fair decks is to drop a big Entreat at their EoT and just win. That said, if the opportunity arises where you can land Blood Moon and win on the spot then that's fine too, but don't count on that being good every game.

I want to agree with you, but it's nearly impossible against Jund. As matter of fact, if Jund taps out for BBE, that might be the best opportunity to just drop Blood Moon when your turn comes around, and hopefully win from there, given you don't die to PFire. With Jund's high threat density, worrying about Choke and PFire, trying to minimize Liliana Ultimate, Blood Moon and/or Misdirection is a valid approach.

[sauce]

In my experience, the setup required for Blood moon vs Jund and even BUG to an extent is pretty difficult as you're trying to do defensive things almost from the beginning. You rarely get to plate Blood moon vs good draws.
It can get there if both of you have slow draws or if Jund/BUG stumbles though.

I agree w/ Drza, it's "cheese" and not very reliable. A competent opponent can beat a resolved Blood moon and play around it.

[DragoFireheart]

Can someone who is experienced with Miracle Control write a new Primer? Hanni's opening post is about Superfriends.

[alphastryk]

Can someone who is experienced with Miracle Control write a new Primer? Hanni's opening post is about Superfriends.

I'm partway through writing one, I've just been very busy. I'll try to get a draft posted here this weekend.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm partway through writing one, I've just been very busy. I'll try to get a draft posted here this weekend.

Thanks in advance.

[twndomn]

Can someone who is experienced with Miracle Control write a new Primer? Hanni's opening post is about Superfriends.

I don't know if this guy's experienced or not, but he did write one.

http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/20...rite-miracles/

[DragoFireheart]

I don't know if this guy's experienced or not, but he did write one.

http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/20...rite-miracles/

Looks pretty good. He seems to like the Legendary version a lot though.

I don't know which variant I want to focus on: Helm/Rip, Venser, or Blade.

[Dzra]

I don't know which variant I want to focus on: Helm/Rip, Venser, or Blade.

As far as I'm concerned, there's only really two real builds: RIP and Flash. Blade was pretty much a dead end for me. RIP is fine, but is highly meta-dependent. For an open field or a planeswalker-heavy field, I would much rather use the Flash variant.

I agree w/ Drza, it's "cheese" and not very reliable. A competent opponent can beat a resolved Blood moon and play around it.

You are a dirty traitor. A dirty, dirty traitor.

[DragoFireheart]

RIP is fine, but is highly meta-dependent. For an open field or a planeswalker-heavy field, I would much rather use the Flash variant.

But RIP/Helm wins randomly on the spot. And RIP takes a shit on anything that uses graveyards. And ET plays nice with Counterbalance.

[Dzra]

But RIP/Helm wins randomly on the spot. And RIP takes a shit on anything that uses graveyards. And ET plays nice with Counterbalance.

As I said, it's basically a meta call. Entreat wins just as easily as Helm. RIP is the real kicker, not the Helm. From a testing standpoint, I believe it is easier to start by learning the Flash version and then deciding if adding graveyard hate to the maindeck would be beneficial for you. Do you find yourself SBing in RIPs against more than 50% of your opponents? If so, then you can pretty safely afford to devote the 4-5 extra MD slots necessary. If you are bringing in the RIPs much less than that then Enlightened Tutor is still great and RIP is still a fantastic SB card.

[klaus]

I'm partway through writing one, I've just been very busy. I'll try to get a draft posted here this weekend.

Hi alphastryk, feel free to PM me what you've got. I can give you my 2 Pence, or even write up 1-2 paragraphs you'd like to "get rid of".

[Adryan]

Plus I just don't feel like losing more games than necessary due to having more than 6 Miracles in my deck.

Greetings

The reason why i think it's worth having 4 Terminus in the Maindeck is that Terminus is superior against other Jace decks, because you don't have to invest a lot of mana and it can be instant speed. Its definetely worth the sacrifice to have 6 Miracle spells (4 terminus; 2 Entreat) in the maindeck.

It's not good to timewalk yourself or invest a lot of mana against other Jace decks.

From where do i know this? I doubt there is any person out there that has played so many sanctioned tournaments like me with Miracle, due to Magic Online. So i have a lot of data and experience.

[Einherjer]

The reason why i think it's worth having 4 Terminus in the Maindeck is that Terminus is superior against other Jace decks, because you don't have to invest a lot of mana and it can be instant speed. Its definetely worth the sacrifice to have 6 Miracle spells (4 terminus; 2 Entreat) in the maindeck.

It's not good to timewalk yourself or invest a lot of mana against other Jace decks.

From where do i know this? I doubt there is any person out there that has played so many sanctioned tournaments like me with Miracle, due to Magic Online. So i have a lot of data and experience.

Neither did I ask you, nor do I care.

Greetings

[Adryan]

Neither did I ask you, nor do I care.

Greetings

Neither it was only directed to you, nor do i care if you chose to play inferior decklists with wrong card choices or numbers.
It's completely up to you, like for everyone here, if he accepts my input and at least starts thinking about it or don't.

I'm just giving some input for you and and maybe if you don't care to some other players that read here and play your list.
Your list has many flaws like the number of the right Miracle spells, number of Jace's, Entreat, playing Spell Pierce (not as good in Miracle as in other decks)etc. and the basic Mountain which can become really akward against other Jace decks because Flooded Strand can't fetch for red if you already have a Volcanic out.

From where do i know that? I tested your 75 because I'm not arrogant. I'm open minded and played lots of different lists, even the most shittiest ones. Your list was one of the bests but it's not optimal. Some choices/ numbers are not correct. It's completely up to you to test other versions/ other numbers etc to really find a very good list. But maybe you are completely sure that your list is perfect and still want to spam this thread from time to time with your list and keep on telling how perfect it is and how genius it is to have a Basic Mountain in the SB (spoiler alert: it is not). It's up to you and for everyone else reading this thread.

Miracle is the best deck in the format, as seen on Magic Online where you can find the highest concentration of good players. The reason why it's not the best deck outside of Magic Online is the clock, due to a lack of a lot of games/ experience. Another reason is that people play the wrong Miracle version (RIP/other cute stuff versions are completely inferior in a normal metagame). They still have a very good deck but it's not as good as it could be.

[twndomn]

The reason why i think it's worth having 4 Terminus in the Maindeck is that Terminus is superior against other Jace decks, because you don't have to invest a lot of mana and it can be instant speed. Its definetely worth the sacrifice to have 6 Miracle spells (4 terminus; 2 Entreat) in the maindeck.

It's not good to timewalk yourself or invest a lot of mana against other Jace decks.

From where do i know this? I doubt there is any person out there that has played so many sanctioned tournaments like me with Miracle, due to Magic Online. So i have a lot of data and experience.

You forget the bigger picture, which is the number of Mass removal in relation to CMC. Most people would maintain at least 1 Verdict MD because of the CMC 4 slot. In most lists, that slot is composed of: Jace x 3 and Verdict x 1. CMC 4 is crucial against Sneak Attack and opposing Jace.

Neither did I ask you, nor do I care.

LOL, you stole my lines.

[Vandalize]

Hey guys. I've been searching for a UWr Miracles list since I've decided to play control. After several years playing combo and midrange/aggro, it's time for change. Could you guys comment on the list? Probably I missed something:

Lands [22]
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland

Creatures [4]
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells [34]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Detention Sphere

Sideboard [15]
3 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Wear/Tear
2 Meddling Mage
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

Perhaps jam a couple Flusterstorms maindeck? I don't know.

[twndomn]

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Detention Sphere

Perhaps jam a couple Flusterstorms maindeck? I don't know.

Spell Snare is questionable, almost a local meta-game call. It doesn't take care Show and Tell, which is a primary reason you run counter at the first place. Early Vial and Liliana are also reasons to run Pierce over Snare.

On a separate note, according to some Miracle experts, StP is not well positioned right now. If we take 1~2 StP out for Blast(s), we gain better MU against non turn-1 combo decks, Delver decks stay about the same, you lose ability to take care early SFM but you gain additional ammo against TNN. The only short coming is DRS and/or Dark Confidant.

[useL]

Neither did I ask you, nor do I care.

Greetings

Clear your inbox dude, want to reply to your message =)

[Einherjer]

Clear your inbox dude, want to reply to your message =)

Sorry, done.

Greetings

[klaus]

I've been on straight UW for a while now, and am still happy about having gotten rid of

I'm aware Spell Pierce (or Flusterstorm) aren't really comparable to REB, since, despite the fact that both act as counter-counter spells moreoften than not, they have quite distinct applications beyond that. We've had this discussion before and whoever pointed it out to me was correct of course. That being said, the most straight forward way to do AB testing is to find two (at least semi-) comparable candidates and frequently ask yourself: "Would I've rather drawn A instead of B now?". This approach is kind of suboptimal while testing UW, since you'd have to constantly consider: "Would I've rather drawn REB now, AND have a worse mana base?" So you'll have to pay a tad more attention and ask more questions.

Evaluating UWR VS. UW is funny because train of thought might take a few misleading slopes: (*scratches imaginary beard) "Wow this is a fundamental question" ---> "Oh well, actually RiP-Helm VS. non-RiP-Helm is much of a bigger difference. I mean c'mon merely adds some Blasts to the SB"... that is until you take a closer look at the subtle yet relevant downsides this minor splash implicates.

There were some smart related posts a few pages back. One of them states something along the lines of: "I ALWAYS want to see 2 Basic Islands & 1 Basic Plains on my side of the table if possible by the end of turn 3." - I mean who wouldn't, right? But things get complicated when you've boarded in a full set of REBs against UWR Delver and at least one of them sits in a hand (on the draw) such as:
1 Jace
1 Counterspell
1 Top
1 EtA
1 REB
1 Plains
1 Flooded Strand

The dilemma should be obvious: are you going to fetch Volcanic Island to be able to protect your turn 2 Top or kill an early Delver while allowing your opponent to potentially keep you off U for some time by wastelanding you? Or are you going to get basic Island and accept the faith that REB might be stranded in your hand until Christmas? With +5 Miracles and 5+ spells with CMC 4, I feel there's just about enough room granted for spells that get stranded in your hand until you can brainstorm them away.

Now imagine you're on straight UW and REB was one of your additional Flusterstorms or Spell Pierces instead - all of a sudden your hand has turned into a very decent opener.

Never having to worry about feels swell, being able to savely get WW for EtA and Supreme Verdict is just gravy. Blood Moon, Sulfur Elemental and the likes just don't pull their weight anymore, and REB countering TNN is cute but not enough of a powerplay to warrant a splash imo.

This is my current list for reference:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
3 Plains
7 Island
1 Karakas

2 Supreme Verdict
2 Terminus
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce

4 Brainstorm
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Entreat the Angels

SB:
2 Terminus
1 Spell Pierce
3 Flusterstorm
3 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Disenchant
1 meta slot

Anybody got 2 Pence for meh?