All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

Even if TNN goes, it will not be while the card is still selling boxes. As much as I dislike the card too, you should not kill it 3 months into its life.

Give it another 6 months and we will see it either go or become a permanent staple.

[Barook]

Even if TNN goes, it will not be while the card is still selling boxes. As much as I dislike the card too, you should not kill it 3 months into its life.

While your argument is sound, don't forget that Mental Missstep also remained 4 months in the format.

[DragoFireheart]

I fail to see how it's going to resolve in a meta choke-full of blue decks. Plus, it's pretty inconsistent.

That's the joke.

[Wilkin]

Yet another Daily event with "great diversity" - 3 TNN decks and Imperial Painter (which doesn't give two shits about TNN and can be considered an A+B Combo deck).

Note that the MODO meta evolves faster than its paper counterpart with less budget restrictions. And here we are - in a meta full of TNN and Anti-TNN decks. You either play A+B Combo which can completely ignore it, a deck that can handle TNN decks without sucking against the rest of the meta (D&T, Shardless BUG, Miracles, among a few other things) or join them. Other combo decks like Storm and non-blue midrange decks are dead. It boogles my mind how people still can say that it doesn't warp the meta.

I sort of agree here. Played a 31 person tournament. Top 8 was mostly Delver variants. The non-Delver were D&T and Deadguy (me).

But yeah I agree that the meta now is TNN decks, Other Delver variants (some didn't play TNN) and decks that can go against them. Because there is so much Delver type decks out there, a lot of combo decks are pushed out. Lol, actually come to think of it Delver of Secrets is way more format warping than True Name Nemesis. But I am annoyed with TNN. Poor design, no interaction. Watching Mirror True-names are boring......seriously watching 2 Griselbrands go at it is more fun.

I'm probably not raging as some other players because of the removal options I play. I don't think you can ban it though, but I wouldn't be upset if it was. I believe someone asked Maro if they could errata TNN and he said that they aren't going to do that. I'm still really annoyed at his answer to deal with TNN, "other players". We don't have that option. thanks.

[Barook]

From Maro's blog:

theverdantchef asked: When you guys announce the banned/restricted cards, who exactly is responsible for these decisions on what gets banned and not. Development?

Development, lead by Erik Lauer, is responsible.

At least we know now who's to blame.

[BVB09]

Do we know the exact date for the announcement?
Thanks

[death]

They may announce it tomorrow 1/27/14, Monday, week of BNG prerelease.

[nedleeds]

People almost universally agree that Griselbrand makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have Griselbrand.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

...

People almost universally agree that Delver makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have Delver.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

...

[DragoFireheart]

I can interact with those cards?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

You can interact with tnn

You can misdirect spells to it

[DragoFireheart]

You can interact with tnn

You can misdirect spells to it

Time to grab my playset of Misdirection before they triple in price.

[TsumiBand]

You can interact with tnn

You can misdirect spells to it

....I'm trying to imagine a board state where the TNN player cares enough about your threats to play a removal spell that you could Misdirection to the Nemesis.
Even so, I think this stretches the definition of what's meant by interactivity. Also, this is a line of play that IMHO if it were playable would have been much more prevalent already. Wouldn't we have been Misdirection-ing all manner of StP/Bolt/etc back at, like, Geist of St Traft or for that matter, any other random threat? Misdirection stopped being a card years ago for a reason.
Also, insert requisite "ugggh best answer to Blue cards is Blue cards" whining.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[TheArchitect]

Dont get me wrong, I think TNN was a mistake and bad design, but the card shouldnt be banned.

Look at show and tell or ad nauseum. Can you cast swords to playshares on those cards? Nope. Jace bounce them? Nope. Pyroclasm? Nope. Do you usually, lose if they resolve? Yup. So how come those cards are dominating the format and demanding bans, how are we stopping those decks from winning? Either preventing them being cast (discard, meddling mage, wasteland, blood moon, etc), countering them as they are cast, or playing very narrow hate cards that stop that specific card from being effective (Humility, aethersworn cannonist, etc). The same exact thing can be said about TNN. You can't just jam a bunch of creature removal in your deck and expect to be able to interact with every deck you see.

TL;DR/Summery: Seriously, playing against cards that can't be interacted with by traditional removal is not anything new to legacy. You have treat TNN more like a combo piece if you want to interact with him: prevent him from being cast, counter him, or play hate cards.


EDIT: Also, there's tons of stuff besides misdirection that interacts with TNN. Every edict effect or non-damage based sweeper ever, skullcrack, Flamebreak, Moat, or humility just to name a few.

[GoboLord]

EDIT: Also, there's tons of stuff besides misdirection that interacts with TNN. Every edict effect or non-damage based sweeper ever, Flamebreak, Moat, or humility just to name a few.

The fact that there are many cards that can deal with TNN does not mean that people are willing to play them (for some reason or the other). And that's what the discussion is really about. TNN is not un-fair, it's un-comfortable.

//EDIT: Misread Skullcrack.

[JanoschEausH]

Flamebreak doesn't work. Since it's a damage based sweeper under your control.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Infest and Deluge both do well. The problem for a lot of this stuff is the exact moment when I equip SoFI. That pretty much does it. Now only Deluge works, and I have a 3 turn clock.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Erdvermampfa]

Infest and Deluge both do well. The problem for a lot of this stuff is the exact moment when I equip SoFI. That pretty much does it. Now only Deluge works, and I have a 3 turn clock.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

Deluge sucks in my opinion. As exciting as it may appear (easy color requirements/hits almost everything/CC3 for CB) it can get very risky against aggro. You have to make sure that they won't recover from the board wipe which is quite hard considering most aggro strategies are fairly redundant in legacy. Furthermore, getting it countered against RUG has to be one of the most frustrating plays right now.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Who is playing aggro? It's pretty solid vs gobbos and elves to my knowledge. Sucks vs merfolk but otherwise, I don't see the problem.

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[Finn]

Dont get me wrong, I think TNN was a mistake and bad design, but the card shouldnt be banned.

Look at show and tell or ad nauseum. Can you cast swords to playshares on those cards? Nope. Jace bounce them? Nope. Pyroclasm? Nope. Do you usually, lose if they resolve? Yup. So how come those cards are dominating the format and demanding bans, how are we stopping those decks from winning? Either preventing them being cast (discard, meddling mage, wasteland, blood moon, etc), countering them as they are cast, or playing very narrow hate cards that stop that specific card from being effective (Humility, aethersworn cannonist, etc). The same exact thing can be said about TNN. You can't just jam a bunch of creature removal in your deck and expect to be able to interact with every deck you see.

TL;DR/Summery: Seriously, playing against cards that can't be interacted with by traditional removal is not anything new to legacy. You have treat TNN more like a combo piece if you want to interact with him: prevent him from being cast, counter him, or play hate cards.


EDIT: Also, there's tons of stuff besides misdirection that interacts with TNN. Every edict effect or non-damage based sweeper ever, skullcrack, Flamebreak, Moat, or humility just to name a few.

It does not work like that. You can not simply include narrow hate cards and expect to be successful against TNN. Apart from the fact that most colors do not have any reliable maindeckable answers of any kind anyway, you can not simply approach TNN like a combo card. Combo decks have choke points that can be exploited. TNN decks (any of them) do not. Look around. Are players of top finishing decks really making poor choices with regards to TNN or is it just a shitty card to have to account for? Is the card actually simple to handle, and we are all fucktards? Or is it more nuanced in a format with dozens of top performing decks? Can you just include narrow hate or will your Red Elemental Blasts sit in your hand while a Batterskull kicks your ass? TNN is not unbeatable. But it is a plague on fun and the weak-ass medicine for it tastes like shit.

[Lord Seth]

Dont get me wrong, I think TNN was a mistake and bad design, but the card shouldnt be banned.

Look at show and tell or ad nauseum. Can you cast swords to playshares on those cards? Nope. Jace bounce them? Nope. Pyroclasm? Nope. Do you usually, lose if they resolve? Yup. So how come those cards are dominating the format and demanding bans, how are we stopping those decks from winning?

For starters, because Show and Tell and Ad Nauseam require you structure your entire deck around them, whereas True-Name Nemesis can just be plopped right into your deck without requiring you to really change anything.