Cheat on camera in SCG Open Baltimore, really?

[bza]

I'd like to point out that I never actually Said he was a cheater. I said it seemed shady the way he did it, and regardless of intent, he did break the rules. I hate to make it seem like I'm implying that he is a cheater. I certainly have done this same thing before on accident. Luckily my opponents generally catch it. I'm just saying that from the knowledge that I had, which was seeing the extra land drop and the swift motion of doing multiple things at a time, it seemed shady.

Saying I was shady and I did it quickly to hide it was a strong implication that I was cheating. As I said if you watch my play all match and the 2 others I played on camera I play the same way.

[Megadeus]

Well, doing multiple actions at once such as putting your land into play, plus playing needle, while naming a card does tend to let things slip by someone if they arent vigilant. and by moving things around so quickly it could be thought of as misdirection which is a pretty commonly used tactic in cheaters. I'm sorry that you took it as me actually saying you were intentionally doing what you did, but you broke one of the basic rules of magic and I was just pointing out my thoughts of how it seemed shady.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hey Rudy, welcome to The Source, where everyone is an expert on cheating, game design, economics, personal finance, self defense, statistics, and is generally smarter and better than you. Enjoy your stay, and be sure to stop by our Banlist thread for our perennial discussion of how Brainstorm is ruining the format but Survival can fix it.

I love you.

[Kayradis]

Baby Jesus said we can forgive to sinners.

Well, fella over there explained and since his name is not Bertonchini (you know that Judas middle name was Bertonchini? Strange eh!) and I'm all in about the "shit happens" factor.

You may go in peace.

[Mr. Froggy]

Damn cheaters!

The way he played Needle and Strand simultaneously was obviously misdirection.

[danyul]

You should have read the previous...1 other page before you commented.

[Lemnear]

You should have read the previous...1 other page before you commented.

Daniel, if people would do that, we had only 50% of posts on TheSource and I would not have become such an ass responding to the ever same bullshit over and over again

[danyul]

LoL that's true. And then I would have nothing to read while at work.

[Fizzeler]

Posted two hours ago in Facebook:



If he was a cheater, he'd place more consistently. Rudy is a good guy.

To call someone a cheater is not something to take lightly.

I will support the good guy argument and fatigue + stress causes minor oversights like that, in the same tournament I almost made the exact play round 2, my opponent pointed it out after a second and I agreed and put the land back in my hand

[mishima_kazuya]

I can confirm this.

I played past in flames incorrectly last year en route to an SCG open top 8.
I might have casted Dark Rituals and Brainstorms twice from my hand after resolving Past in Flames to beat a few opponents. I also did not realize I cheated until a few weaks later

[HammafistRoob]

I've done the exact same thing before without realizing it until my opponent pointed it out, and I wasn't even tired and completely comfortable. It sometimes can happen when you immediately Waste them on your turn and then think about 6 different lines before doing anything.

Making land drops in your 2nd main has many advantages, including terminating this error from occurring. It just sucks that nobody caught it, intentional or not.

[lordofthepit]

Hey guys Rudy here. You are right I did play an extra land but it wasn't on purpose. I had less than 3 hours of sleep in the last two days and was very tired. As I'm sure many of you know magic can be a stressful game especially when you have many decision trees.

As some of you mentioned I fidddle a lot with my cards. This is something I did in every match I played and wasn't just in that match. I would suggest watching how I play first before you make assumptions about my motives.

I made a mistake and wasnt aware of it. In fact many peoe didn't including Todd and the table judge or the commentators.

I'm sorry I played an extra land it was an oversight and it isn't how I do things. I hope you can realize this was just a mistake and that not everyone can play perfectly all the time.

You have the benefit of the doubt from me.

I've played a lot of matches and made many game state violations unintentionally, as well as sitting across from a player committing such violations. Sometimes it's caught right away. Other times, not until several turns later, or even after the game is long over. There are even many times when my opponent or I will forget to do something beneficial (draw off Ponder or Probe), or other times where the error is largely irrelevant (creature moved to the graveyard after getting hit with Swords to Plowshares). And I'm sure there are many instances where this is not caught. I have seen this happen across from me with all sorts of players, ranging from novices to even Gold level pros.

When I mess up and catch it immediately, I'll try the best to rectify the situation in a "fair way" if possible at a casual setting. I've conceded after realizing I Brainstormed with a Ponder (and the same opponent has done likewise when done against me), and I've offered to replay a game that I won after we realized afterwards that my Jitte-wielding creature should have died as a result of combat damage, even though I was very far ahead in the game. If possible, I think play mistakes regarding game state should be punished, even if cheating wasn't the intention; unfortunately, it's hard to enforce such punishment when no one realizes a mistake was made.

The absolute worst thing that I can imagine happening to me in a Magic game is not making an egregious punt on camera, but messing up in a way that will cause you to be labeled as a cheat. My very first camera match, I happened to get paired against a friend who was borrowing my deck (and the announcers mentioned that). In the late game, I used a Knight of the Reliquary activation without sacrificing a land, because I decided to float and then mentally forgot to move it to the graveyard. That land was absolutely irrelevant to the game state, and neither of us (nor the announcers) caught the mistake. After I won the match, I checked Twitter to see if there were any comments, and several people pointed out that I forgot to sacrifice the land.

Fortunately, because the announcers had already mentioned that I was paired against a friend, most people realized I didn't intentionally do this, but a few dimwits still labeled me a cheater. Here's a hint: if someone makes a mistake on camera, they're probably not doing it intentionally, especially against a friend, unless they're an absolute psychopath. Nonetheless, I felt really bad, and although I couldn't rewind the game state and offer to "fix" everything or receive some sort of punishment, the mistake tilted me enough that I ended up that I punted my way out of the tournament in the next few rounds. It was the only time I ever finished outside the money at SCG, which I'm completely fine with: in a way, I feel as though Justice punished me appropriately for messing up, even though I didn't do so on purpose.

[Kayradis]

Now that everybody shared their (useless and misinformed) opinion, can we talk about something constructive?
The poor fella screwed himself so hard he could have stabbed himself in the face on camera and we would have heard less whining.

Just fucking get over it.

[Richard Cheese]

Can this become a discussion on that move where people constantly shuffle their hand while they play. I know some of you do that and I'd love to hear if there's a reason or it's a nervous tick or what.

[DragoFireheart]

Can this become a discussion on that move where people constantly shuffle their hand while they play. I know some of you do that and I'd love to hear if there's a reason or it's a nervous tick or what.

Supposedly it increases the effectiveness of your counterspells and removal. Something about making the spell you stop/destroy causing the other player to rage hard and then make mistakes.

Or maybe just shuffling your hand is what causes them to rage. I do not know.

[Holly]

Can this become a discussion on that move where people constantly shuffle their hand while they play. I know some of you do that and I'd love to hear if there's a reason or it's a nervous tick or what.

A pro started with that very loudly (was it Finkel?).
A pro does it. You do it, you become a pro.
Make sense doesnt it?

Well that.. and nervous tick.. and some people claim it helpes them thinking.. to hide information what you drew before you play a land.. to distract the opponent..

I do it, too. Though I try to stop it if I catch myself. Its a bad habbit.

[bza]

Can this become a discussion on that move where people constantly shuffle their hand while they play. I know some of you do that and I'd love to hear if there's a reason or it's a nervous tick or what.

I shuffle my hand mostly because I have a lot of nervous tics and it helps me focus. In a format like legacy and now standard where discard is prominent, shuffling your hand can prevent your opponent from figuring out what you drew or memorizing your hand. You can also do this when they have no discard as you can feign whether or not you are land light or heavy or what you drew.

[lordofthepit]

Can this become a discussion on that move where people constantly shuffle their hand while they play. I know some of you do that and I'd love to hear if there's a reason or it's a nervous tick or what.

I've done that even before I knew pros do it.

I do it so that my opponents have a harder time reading what's in my hand. A lot of players will peel a land off the top of the deck on turn 2 and play it immediately. That's a good sign that I should just Wasteland you even if I have no action.

[danyul]

I'll admit it. I shuffle my hand around because it makes me feel like a cool kid. Often I'm doing it and just thinking about shit I have to do at home, like laundry or cooking or whatever. The hand-shuffling is like any other affectation - half of it is for style points, the other half is for bluffing I guess.

Also you can tell how long somebody has played by the way they handle their cards. Some guys are intimidating with the way they handle their shit. Like I know I'm gonna lose already because of how smoothly this guy shuffles and draws. That's some magician shit.

By the same token, I know I have the upper hand if my opponent shuffles and draws with all the dexterity of Edward Scissorhands.

I'm not sure what it all means, but it certainly means something.

[civet five]

In my last 2 tourneys I've committed stupid infractions that can only be chalked up to nervousness+dumbassery. In 1 case I caught it, in the other my opponent caught it.

In one case, I was using Fetch/Top/Fetch to see extra cards, and accidentally looked at 4 cards before cracking my first fetch. Obviously not good, and called a judge on myself. The other time, I Pondered and forgot to actually draw the card after shuffling (it was turn 1, i just passed after shuffling). This was easy to rectify. I've actually had this issue playing TurboLand also, where its *very* easy to lose track of land drops with Exploration, especially under the old land drop rules (where you could bounce and recast Exploration for additional land drops).

Luckily most mistakes are accidental in nature and the person really feels bad about it. But I also think that we as a community need to feel comfortable calling judges no matter what. As soon as we think of calling judges as tattle-tailing, the cheaters win. Judges are there to protect the integrity of the game and to find fair solutions to stupid things like the mistakes I list above.