All B/R update speculation.

[cheerios]

The color needs an identity makeover. Right now, there's nothing interesting for red.

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[sdematt]

The color needs an identity makeover. Right now, there's nothing interesting for red.

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Red and Black have needed a boost for YEARS. And it's not just about Brainstorm hosing, it's about having proactive cards that aren't just anti "good Blue" cards.

-Matt

[testing32]

Red and Black have needed a boost for YEARS. And it's not just about Brainstorm hosing, it's about having proactive cards that aren't just anti "good Blue" cards.

-Matt

I think they should give black fateseal.

If they are going to continue with this red draw/discard thing they need to actually start printing some good ones. Like, draw two discard one for R.

[Arsenal]

On the results issue, I would weight any tournament with less than 33 players to be of lesser value when determining the metagame. The reason for this is that it reduces the effect that variance has on a placing.

Right, which is why thesource uses a 33 player floor and the vast, vast majority of thecouncil's data is mined from 33+ player tourneys. There are sub-33 player tourneys on thecouncil to be sure, but those are in the minority. But what HSCK was saying is that he doesn't consider any sub-50 player tourney worth counting and only views SCG Opens and BoM-style tourneys as "real" tournaments.

As FTW and I have pointed out, a 33 player floor allows for enough rounds (6, I believe) to draw reasonable conclusions from and by cherry picking only the 129+ player tourneys (since he apparently has a hard-on for channelfireball's Bob Huang) out of the dozens of dozens of +33/-129 tourneys out there, he's trying to draw conclusions from an extremely small sample size. Yet he believes that I'm "skewing the data" and "misleading" people by presenting analysis from all of the available data instead of cherry picked data?

[HSCK]

Top 16 an Open, GP, or BoM carries much more weight than top 8'ing repeatedly at 40 person tourneys. What's the point at looking at results like that? Even The Source's floor is far too low to determine what's actually good.

[Arsenal]

Top 16 an Open, GP, or BoM carries much more weight than top 8'ing repeatedly at 40 person tourneys. What's the point at looking at results like that? Even The Source's floor is far too low to determine what's actually good.

Because your "129+ only" sample size is too small to draw any meaningful conclusions from. How do you do not understand this basic concept of statistics?

[Julian23]

Top 16 an Open, GP, or BoM carries much more weight than top 8'ing repeatedly at 40 person tourneys. What's the point at looking at results like that? Even The Source's floor is far too low to determine what's actually good.

You might have missed what Arsenal said in the post directly above yours: way too small sample size and thus greatly increased variance.

Although, while you are free to assume that a Top16 at SCG Open carries so much more significance than Like a Top8 in a 64man tournament, the overwhelming majority of us disagrees. You are though free to create your own metagame analysis based on the criteria you propose; I'm genuinely interested in how that would look like.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Lands would be a fringe DTB lol.

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[Technics]

Obviously any tournament below 1,500 players is not a good representation of the metagame. I mean there is too much variance in anything smaller than 1,500 players. Thus the unbiased metagame analysis shows that TNN is super OP.

Source

[Arsenal]

In December 2013, there were 28 tourneys that had at least 33 entrants. Of those, only 8 would meet the 129+ criteria that HSCK is so desperately clinging onto. Trying to draw any conclusions about the overall Legacy meta from only 29% of the tourneys while completely ignoring the other 71% is just retarded. HSCK has been on this "I only follow Bob Huang's 129+ player data" kick for months now, I doubt anything we say will change his views.

HSCK, do me a favor, please don't comment anymore on my use of thecouncil's data when it's painfully obvious you have no clue what you're talking about. It wastes my time and clutters up the thread. Thank you.

[Lemnear]

I would be thankful if peeps stop trying to determine the WORLDWIDE Legacy metagame based on bi-weekly US events

[Patrunkenphat7]

Unbanning mana drain will drive it's price up only. Cool card tho but I don't think it will be healthy for the format. Besides the price, people will just bitch about blue getting stronger.

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Yeah I agree that Mana Drain's cost prohibitiveness keeps it out of the discussion. As far as the colors go, I think it would be cool if the game had a more balanced color pie from the beginning, but I'm fine with playing with OP blue cards printed in the 90's since that's just how it is. I think you just have to accept that Wizards screwed up balancing the color pie if you play eternal formats. That's still no excuse for the printing of True-Name in 2013 though...

[FTW]

I would be thankful if peeps stop trying to determine the WORLDWIDE Legacy metagame based on bi-weekly US events

But US = relevant part of the world, duh

(note: I am not American)

[Ellomdian]

Control decks and esperblade decks are already playing counterspells in some number (2-4). Mana drain would be a 4-of in any deck playing Jace (and probably more, that card is the definition of tempo!). Also, turn 3 Jaces would be stupid.

Wha? You're playing JTMS turn 3? What the hell did you do wrong turn 2 (glances at 7Tezz...)

Yeah I agree that Mana Drain's cost prohibitiveness keeps it out of the discussion.

Mana drain is ~$180. Goyf is ~$120, and FREAKIN' TNN is $50. Costing monies should not prohibit you from this discussion, because it just hyperinflates the good cards immediately below your price floor...

I'm a troll! Trolly troll troll troll troll troll. FEED ME SEYMOUR! Statistics! Empirically flawed 'logic'! Personal bias and rhetoric! Trolly troll troll TROLLLLLLLL

Claiming that one statistical group does not satisfy your particular hypothesis without justifying it, and then arguing that other analysis is invalid based on your aforementioned lack of justification is dumb. I'd ask you to stop wasting digital ink and save your keyboard the abuse of having to be touched by your rage-y fingers, but let's be real, this is the internet. That will just make you froth harder.

[Zombie]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...cted-List.html
I want whatever he's smoking. It might help my brain gather itself together from the liquefied lump on the floor it became when exposed to too much dumb. (re:Legacy bannings part and associated logic)

[EpicLevelCommoner]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...cted-List.html
I want whatever he's smoking. It might help my brain gather itself together from the liquefied lump on the floor it became when exposed to too much dumb. (re:Legacy bannings part and associated logic)

I think I got a contact high just skimming it. I mean wow: dat logic!

Regarding the three blue cards, only Show and Tell I can agree with, and that's because it's enables two key aspects that makes it potentially broken in Legacy:

1) The cards it enables are usually hard to answer, especially without prior knowledge as to what it will be enabling upon use.
2) The cards it enables typically win the game very fast, so there isn't enough time to fish out an answer.

As for TNN, it's more or less enabled by Batterskull, which is enabled by Stoneforge ... that there is a pretty tricky chain to pick out the rotten apple now that I think about it.

[Megadeus]

I just love that he thinks that Mental Misstep is okay to unban. That just seems AWFUL.

[apple713]

I think I got a contact high just skimming it. I mean wow: dat logic!

Regarding the three blue cards, only Show and Tell I can agree with, and that's because it's enables two key aspects that makes it potentially broken in Legacy:

1) The cards it enables are usually hard to answer, especially without prior knowledge as to what it will be enabling upon use.
2) The cards it enables typically win the game very fast, so there isn't enough time to fish out an answer.

As for TNN, it's more or less enabled by Batterskull, which is enabled by Stoneforge ... that there is a pretty tricky chain to pick out the rotten apple now that I think about it.

Nothing, including show and tell is swwping the format. Therefore nithing will be banned. Its more likely tgats cards will be unbanned

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Nothing, including show and tell is swwping the format. Therefore nithing will be banned. Its more likely tgats cards will be unbanned

Oh I agree with ya: I was just saying the only one that he mentioned that close to being banworthy was S&T.

[Feaor]

Nothing, including show and tell is swwping the format. Therefore nithing will be banned. Its more likely tgats cards will be unbanned

I would strongly disagree with this, TNN is certainly on their radar and I don't think anything will get unbanned for a while unless TNN gets banned and they unban something as a consolation. Now I don't think TNN will get unbanned on Monday, but I think the meta is certainly still in flux so its seems extremely unlikely that anything gets unbanned until the format is given time to settle. I would expect this time next year at the earliest is when we would likely see something come off the list if the meta is in a good place.