Personally, I do not run any basics and am running 2 Wastelands and 2 CTP. My reasons are as such,
1. My meta game sees little to no Blood Moon effects: I understand that people are afraid of this deck and rightfully so, it's probably one of our worst match ups. A combo deck that attacks our greed mana base sounds scary but the truth is that even in a big SCG Open or GP, you're not going to see many of these decks. Sure you may see one or 2 in 16 rounds, considering you would make it to day 2 in a GP, however the pay off for playing the greedy mana base to verse decks that you will be seeing more than once. The pay off for having a greedy mana base to versus Delver decks, TNN decks, Jace decks, and Combo decks infinitely out ways trying to play around the boogie man for our precious BUG deck. Also, even if a Blood Moon effect is cast you still have Force or counter magic, targeted discard, Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman all for games 2 and 3. Seems like a lot of work to protect for a bad matchup when we do have some answers.
2. My meta sees little Wasteland Stifle decks: With the rise of UWR Delver and decline of RUG Delver, people are starting to move away from the Stifle//Wasteland package to disrupt mana bases. It is more important for UWR to progress towards using their mana to impact the board than to reactively play a 1CC threat and tempo you out. Sure they will have wasteland every now and then but even against RUG Delver I would rather be cut off of 1 color than two on turn 2-3. IE you have Underground Sea and Bayou vs either of those lands in combination with a swamp or forest. I used to play one swamp in my main for the RUG Delver match up, but with the decline I do not feel it's necessary.
3. My Meta has a decent amount of Stoneblade Variants: I LOVE VERSING THIS DECK! Regardless of TNN printing, I feel this is still our best matchup. There's nothing busted that they are doing that we don't do better. The card advantage that we have pulls ahead of them as quickly as a TNN does for them against other decks. My last LGS I faced 4 Stoneblade variants and went undefeated. A basic in this matchup is virtually worthless since-----
A: Most don't play Wasteland.
B: If they do, they will not usually try to mana screw you since they are trying to progress their board state to using SFM activations, casting Jace or TNN and equipping.
C: We need as many colors to fight against them due to the heavy color usage of our deck.
With that said I do like having the extra Tar Pit and the 2 Wastelands here for the following.
A: I can afford to play a turn 1 tap land since the match is generally slower than a delver matchup and the need to use your mana every turn is not a necessary, though important.
B: Tar Pit kills Jace and TNN cannot block it.
C: An opponent with wasteland will usually waste a Tar Pit rather than color screwing us due to the threat of Tar Pit.
D: Using wasteland to color screw them is more valuable then them us due to the importance of casting Jace.
E: Cutting them off of of Batterskull casting mana after the game has gone long. I cannot emphasize the relevance of this enough. By far a real reason to play wasteland!
4: My meta has a health amount of Combo in it: I wouldn't say any more than normal, however it does have it's Sneak and Show, Storm, Elves, Reanimator amongst others. As mentioned before, having access to as mana colors here as possible is important and drawing a basic man not be horrible but not having basics makes your mulligans so much better. The Tar Pit is not the best having two but I like it in all other match ups. Also color screwing them early on, especially games 2 and 3 when you have the proper tools to battle them, is much effective than against fair decks since stripping them of their resources is our best method of success. I don't feel I want 3 Wastelands since it does mess with the mana a little too much for my taste. Two has seemed worked very well for me against fair and unfair decks with my results.
Lastly, I would like to conclude the following: I am basing my arguments on my personal meta as well as the SCG Open series. I understand that different metas call for different choices and respect that. If my meta moved back to Delver Stifle strategies I would probably consider the basic Swamp I once used and possibly another basic. I understand that a lot of success not only has to do with a winning formula but confidence. I have played a lot of tournament magic in the last two years and can honestly say that any successes I had all involved me being conformable with my deck list. The lists may not have been optimal, but I knew it that what I had could get me there with what I would be expecting to face. Finally I would say take your experience and use it to evolve a list you know. My opinions on this debate come from knowledge, preference, data, and my experiencing piloting my favorite legacy deck of all time. I have played a lot of games with this deck and understand what I need to win, use the information, including your loses to make a judgement call. I would advise anyone with a similar metagame as mine, to try the configuration of 2 CPT 2 WL and no basics, if it doesn't work tweak as such.
Last edited by Darkness; 01-09-2014 at 10:30 AM.
Everything Darkness has said is spot on. I used to play this deck a lot and eventually realized that if you're worried about Blood Moon or stifle/wasteland strategies you're playing the wrong deck. Blood Moon decks like painter are a such a small percentage of the general meta that you don't have to really worry about them, especially since Shardless BUG doesn't have a target on its head anymore like it did over the summer. If you guys must play basics I would play no more than two (usually a swamp and forest).
In regards to Legacy:Originally Posted by Lysandros
I love discussing about mana base, IMO is the most difficult and also important key to success for a deck, rather than minor change in well-oiled decklists
I agree on the meta call for basics while not completely sold on the wastes side i'd like to dig into the CTP argument:
-How many one drop do you have and how much important is to play them on the first turn?
-Do you keep hand with 2 land, one being the Tar pit? on the draw or on the play? with BS or DRS?
-How much do you activate conservatively the CTP? Does it eat lot of removals/wastes?
-How much do you regret to have/not have drawn it, respectively, during the most common MU?
- L
Here are the results I have had since I started playing this deck in April of 2013. These results are my from my LGS, an SCG event and from a few other random tournaments.
49-26-2
2-1 TES
2-0 Mono White Human ( Not DnT )
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
2-1 MUD
2-0 Enchantress
2-0 MUD
2-0 Reanimator
2-0 Goblins
1-2 RUG Delver
2-1 BUG Death's Shadow
1-2 Death and Taxes
0-2 Manaless Dredge
2-0 Punishing Maverick
2-0 UWb Miracles
0-2 UR Delver
2-0 Jund
0-2 Waterfall Cascade
2-0 Deathblade
2-1 UR Delver
0-2 Affinity
2-0 UR Delver
1-0-1 UWr Miracles
1-2 Omniscience
2-0 Reanimator
1-2 Goblins
0-2 Dark Depths
2-1 Goblins
1-2 Jund
2-1 ANT
2-0 Esper Blade TNN
2-0 Patriot no TNN
1-0-1 Esper Blade TNN
2-0 Patriot no TNN
No Sneak&Tell, only Omni? Strange, i wish i could play in this meta, apart from Dredge which require a specific SB, an expert storm player and S&T are still my worst MU with D&T and find an adequate room in the SB to for all this MU isn't easy.
At this moment what is you sideboard? Some smart thoughts on a particular MU?
- L
I have the urge to try and shove the CounterTop combination into this deck. More card advantage seems fun, but it has no impact on the board.
I got beaten up on by a guy playing counter balance. I think he was more in a control deck with walkers and no goyfs.
How many spots are you willing to give to this strategy 6, 7 or 8? Hard choices ahead...
You want to keep the Agents? Here are the cons IMO:
- SDT seems cool for preparing the cascade but playing 4x (which is the right number in CounterTop decks) and cascading into it seems just bad: is just like casting a stix and draw it, not much CA
- cascading in balance is just plain bad, i want to cascade into something that affects the board right now or that gives me insane CA.
Not to mentions that 1cmc cards count is too low in the typical lists.
I would to in a hard control route: no agents and goys --> countertop, spell pierce/snare and IoK/T-seize. But this seems just underwhelming compared to miracles or just esper CounterTop...
- L
I have no idea where to post this, so I'll start here I guess.
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Daze
Sideboard:
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's JItte
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
From a few suggestions, I took the list that Gerrard Fabiano and Reid Duke brewed up and upped the TNN count to 4 in the 75. I also replaced some of the sweepers with Marsh Casualties, since Toxic Deluge and the like seem like a nonbo in a deck with a bunch of X/1s.
So I took the above list and made top 4 of a local 64 person tournament.
Round 1: Mono white Solider Tribal
Win match
Round 2: Deathblade
Draw match
Round 3: Punishing Jund
Win match
Round 4: Omnitell
Win match
Round 5: Goblins
Win match
Round 6: ID
Quarterfinals: Jund
Win match
MVP: Marsh Casualties and Spell Pierce
LVP: Daze
Notes: I had to mulligan a lot of 1 landers, so it may help to add a 23rd land. Perhaps a Creeping Tar Pit? Despite Daze usually being the worst card in the deck, it feels like a nessicity (sp?) to make up for the lack of cheap interactive spells(StP, Lightning Bolt, Force of Will, etc). One could argue for Spell Pierce instead of Daze, which may be worth trying.
Certainly not here in "Shardless BUG." I believe there is a midrange BUG thread in "Established Decks" that is much more appropriate. Glad the deck worked out well for you though.
EDIT:
Here is a link
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ontrol-Thread)
I don't like removing Shardless Agent. I think for this deck it's vastly superior to TNN. If we were running white for SFM then I'd reconsider but in that case I'd just play Deathblade.
Plus our anti-TNN cards wouldn't play well if we also played TNN. A 3/1 isn't scary when we have Lilly/Golgari Charm/Toxic Deluge. I'd rather get a 2/2 and draw three cards and drown the SFM/TNN player in card advantage.
Thinking about Meta gaming with all the hype for TNN and Spirit of the Lab by running a MD 1 of Night of Soul's Betrayal? Thoughts?
that is probably better in other non-shardless versions of the deck… perhaps the more traditional BUG control decks
I do agreed that it is better in a control BUG deck, I'm just looking for a meta game call first couple of weeks after TNN and Spirit of the Lab are legal. I don't wanna play a slow variant of BUG control against the combo decks in the field, I like the pressure Shardless BuG puts against non Spirit of the Lab decks. My logic is it kills most creatures in which both decks have homes for, specifically DnT which has a lot of hype with the printing of SotL. Here is a list of creatures it kills.
True Name Nemesis
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Snapcaster Mage
Dark Confidant
Thailia, Guardian of Thraben
Mother of Runes
Flickerwhisp
Phyrexian Revoker
Mangara of Corondor
Lingering Soul Tokens
Aven Mind Censor
Delver of Secrets (Unflipped)
Grim Lavamancer
Birchlore Ranger
Fyndhorn Elves
Llanowar Elf
Dryad Arbor
Heritage Druid
Elvish Visionary
Quirion Ranger
Wirewood Symbiote
Nimble Mongoose (No Threshold)
Noble Hierarch
Scryab Ranger
I have a feeling the card is going to go over the top against some bad matchup and solidify even to good match ups game one. AS I stated before, I don't expect this to be a permanent choice, just a meta call to blindside people. Obviously this card is trash against combo, however I did remove my 1 of MD Baleful Strix to put this card in, which was a virtual dead card against combo anyways.
Last edited by Darkness; 01-30-2014 at 10:24 PM.
So I am picking up this deck and should have it completed by Monday. I was wondering if anyone knows of any good "How to play" the deck videos/articles. I have been searching the net for SCG/GP games and have played a budget version a couple of times and I get the overall game plan but probably not some of the other common/intricate lines. I have seen many of the SCG Legacy matches featuring Shardless BUG.
My list:
Creatures (15)
3x Baleful Strix
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
Sorceries (8)
2x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ancestral Vision
Instants (12)
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will
Planeswalkers (3)
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Lands (22)
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Wasteland
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
Sideboard (15)
2x Flusterstorm
2x Thoughtseize
1x Hymn to Tourach
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Golgari Charm
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Massacre
1x Engineered Plague
Does the decklist/sideboard seem fine?
MB, I added a strix over jace since there are so many delver/spell pierce/daze decks running around. I also added a 4th FoW so I can have a better g1 vs combo. How good is mb pulse?
I may want to find room in the sb for Vendilion Clique and/or Pernicious Deed (most likely removing both edicts).
I am really excited to finish this deck.
Thanks.
Last edited by Chaam; 01-31-2014 at 07:12 PM.
My thoughts:(not playing shardless bug,but esper/IP)Blood moon is indeed the worst case scenario, and there is little u can do about it. However I think that if u were to run 2wastelands...Why not replace them with 2basics?(island/swamp probably). I think it has a lot more value then those 2wastelands will ever provide. Just being able to go swamp/drs is alrdy so huge vs these decks since that means u get to decay moon etc.. There are numerous other situations vs different decks but I think u get it. You just gotta ask urself if I'd rather have 2wastelands or 2basics.. I'd know the answer;) greetings
First of all about the list. It seems pretty solid. However, I think Pulse is needed mb. It is your one and only out against random cards such as Elspeth and Karn. They will tear us apart, so having something to answer them is essential.
In the sb I question two cards: Massacre and Loam (though I was a great fan of Loam in this deck before). The last few tournaments I played with Loam it hasn't been useful and has been dead in hand a few times. The massacre seems too much when you already have two Golgari Charms and a Plague. What mu do you want it in that isn't already covered by those spells? I'd probably cut those for Clique and Deed if you want them. I'm no fan of either in this deck.
You've got the standard manabase, which is fine but can be tweaked. I found the second Tar Pit extremely annoying. It was in my opener far too often and you really don't want it before the midgame. I cut one for the third Wasteland. Don't be fooled into believing that Wasteland is subpar in this deck. In the current meta with all those tempo decks it is very efficient. As RancOr_ rightly says Blood Moon is a bomb against your manabase, so you really want a Swamp. I decided to cut a Sea for it since you don't really need four. This means you must ofcourse maximize on your black fetches. Be sure to fetch for your Swamp if you suspect Blood Moon might make an appearance. Keep in mind that a few decks sideboard it as well.
As for strategies, it is really difficult to give good advice since our deck offers so many choices that in every game you might want a different approach to the game. I will give it a try though.
Aggro: survive the first turns with Strix and Decay. Then stabilize and take control. DRS is golden vs goblins.
Tempo: vitally important to make your land drops. Be sure to stabilize before running into double bolt range when playing UWR or RUG. BUG is easily our best mu in this department.
Control: Keep making them answer your threats. Since you have the same amount (if not more) card advantege than them you will eventually win this race. Play as many Liliana's as you can after sb.
Midrange: This depends completely on your hand and the board state, so no global thinking here. Anything with the punishing grove combo is a bad mu.
Combo: Disrupt them as much as you while providing a clock. Pretty straightforward here.
Prison: You will be the aggressor in this mu so try to beat them to pulp before long. In general we have too diverse an arsenal to answer (Jace, Goyf, DRS are three different wincons).
That's pretty much it. Hope you'll do well with it.
@martijnend, just keep in mind the lack of synergy between Shardless Agent + Flusterstorm. I believe most lists forgo the cheap counterspells as to not waste cascades, instead opting for more discard (or if absolutely necessary, something like Mindbreak Trap) although I haven't been staying very current with Shardless BUG lists as of late.
@Mortox: agreed about the Shardless into Flusterstorm possibility. It is a possibility, but most of the time you'll set up your cascades with bs or jace. It comes up very few times that you'll blindly cascade into Flusterstorm.
In the current meta the power of FS is far greater than MBT for it has a wider range of targets. It's especially noticable against S&T decks, Reanimator and some tempo strategies. MBT would be a pure anticombo piece.
I am new to playing Shardless BUG, looking for advise on Sideboard for going into a unknown meta.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
