All B/R update speculation.

[nedleeds]

I just love that he thinks that Mental Misstep is okay to unban. That just seems AWFUL.

It's absurd. Legacy is nearly a 56 card format right now with Brainstorm ... welcome back to 52 card format. Enjoy Merfolk with 4 MM and Progenifish also ...

[HammafistRoob]

Does anybody have a legitimate argument to keep Brainstorm in the format? I don't care how much your poon will hurt, I just want to see the thought process that doesn't involve "RaWr it doesn't win the game on it's own and I'll quit if they ban it!!!".

[Megadeus]

4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
4 Snapcaster Mage

See I'm already next leveling the format

[Ellomdian]

Does anybody have a legitimate argument to keep Brainstorm in the format? I don't care how much your poon will hurt, I just want to see the thought process that doesn't involve "RaWr it doesn't win the game on it's own and I'll quit if they ban it!!!".

Not really. It's been regarded as one of the keystones of the format for long enough that people generally just don't consider it overpowered at this point.

[HammafistRoob]

Pall Malls and Keystones.

That is all.

[Megadeus]

I know it is a very powerful card and all. I honestly don't care anymore. I accept the fact that it won't get banned. Hell, I enjoy playing it when I am in blue decks. It is annoying that Blue decks have infinitely more consistent cards, but whatever. Just please, someone punch the next person who says that MM should be unbanned

[Mewens]

Does anybody have a legitimate argument to keep Brainstorm in the format? I don't care how much your poon will hurt, I just want to see the thought process that doesn't involve "RaWr it doesn't win the game on it's own and I'll quit if they ban it!!!".

I'm of two minds about it, myself. It adds a ton of consistency to the format – and that's a huge amount of pressure to keep decks trim and cards efficient. I mean, its mere existence chokes out more than a few strats (by enabling decks like SnT and Storm and tempo shells).

On the other hand, there's less and less separating this format from Modern. I'm not trying to say that Brainstorm is the dividing line between the two formats – but take a look at the creatures being run in Legacy. The difference is, what, Mom? Stoneforge Mystic? Wild Mongoose? It's a pretty thin line. Spells are what makes Legacy Legacy, but even then, we're mostly resting on storm, FoW, Stifle, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain and Show and Tell. (I guess you could put Jace 2.0 and LED in that list, too.)

I'm no genius, so I'm not going to pretend that I could say, "Legacy would look like -this- without Brainstorm," but I'm equally certain that it wouldn't take too many bans of its flagship cards before it started to look like Modern with white-border mana bases.

[apple713]

I would strongly disagree with this, TNN is certainly on their radar and I don't think anything will get unbanned for a while unless TNN gets banned and they unban something as a consolation. Now I don't think TNN will get unbanned on Monday, but I think the meta is certainly still in flux so its seems extremely unlikely that anything gets unbanned until the format is given time to settle. I would expect this time next year at the earliest is when we would likely see something come off the list if the meta is in a good place.

TNN is a poorly designed card. It's not broken, it just should have never been printed. Unfortunately the same is true for many other cards (see delver of secrets and mental misstep). TNN along the lines of WOTC's mistake with tarmogoyf. Not the same just similar in the sense that they neglected to test and think about how it shaped eternal formats. wTNN is the "combo" piece in aggro decks with an equipment. Fortunately he sucks against combo, and has little impact against control (miracles). The only people that are complaining about him are people that play fair decks... i.e. aggro / tempo. If he's that much of a problem for you pick up a fucking combo deck and deal with it like the rest of us.

If you are able to cast a TNN and equip him with something (typically turn 4) and I haven't won with a combo deck, I've already failed. All competitive legacy combo decks win by t4 unless they've been disrupted or incredibly unfortunate in their digging.

There are lots of mainstream answer to this poorly designed card with fucking hideous artwork...(i won't get a set because it looks so retarded). terminus, moat, humility, toxic deluge, liliana of the veil.

red can race it, and it doesn't generate any sort of card advantage at all by itself. If its untapped its a wall. If its attacking its 3 damage...on turn 4....Why are you complaining about 3 damage on turn 4....Standard decks can handle this card. If you can't you need to play better cards or not play legacy.

Does anybody have a legitimate argument to keep Brainstorm in the format? I don't care how much your poon will hurt, I just want to see the thought process that doesn't involve "RaWr it doesn't win the game on it's own and I'll quit if they ban it!!!".

WOTC doesn't make decisions on what to keep and not to keep in the format. They address issues that arise when large tournament results are skewed by certain cards. Brainstorm isn't the reason that all the decks in a top 8 are in the top 8. by that logic you probably would have ban tarmogoyf a long time ago. Same is true for wasteland and force of will probably.

The ONLY issue i see with brainstorm is that the other colors don't have anything near as powerful / similar that they can use to increase consistency in their colors. This creates a biased color shift towards blue and indirectly hates on brainstorm.

Let me ask you this MR hammer fist red player. If WOTC printed the following card

Hammerfist Storm - R

instant

deal 3 damage to target creature or player. Scry 3.


Would this be better than brainstorm? Probably not because it doesn't let you ditch bad cards in your hand. Is it comparable to brainstorm in its filtering / consistency increasing ability... YES. Is it broken, probably not. Burn has top 8'd maybe twice in the last 3 years in legacy. MAYBE other colors would incorporate this into their decks instead of blue.

Unfortunatly since it works well with RUG it would probably only add to the problem but if it was

Pope's Blessing - W

Instant

gain 3 life or prevent 3 damage to target creature or player. Scry 3.

would white play it? Maybe... maybe not. But at least if I'm playing a white deck I have an option for increased consistency.



TLDR; don't ban brainstorm, just print comparable options in other colors.

[KntrellCL]

The argument of "get over it"... "adapt to it" is repetead over the years of every single card banned until now...

Every card has an answer... but when a card generates a metagame around it... it should be banned. This card has pushed away all the fair deck... like maverick, goblins, aggro loam, etc... why should I play combo only for tnn? And why only people with tnn decks can be succesful? Dont get me wrong... i play lands and i really dont care about tnn... but i think is a banneable card to give space to other decks....

[Zombie]

The only people that are complaining about him are people that play fair decks... i.e. aggro / tempo. If he's that much of a problem for you pick up a fucking combo deck and deal with it like the rest of us.

Sorry, I play combo near exclusively, think the card is atrocious for the general enjoyability and interestingness of the format, and should have a painful meeting with the banhammer. The sooner the better. I also complain loudly.

[apple713]

The argument of "get over it"... "adapt to it" is repetead over the years of every single card banned until now...

Every card has an answer... but when a card generates a metagame around it... it should be banned. This card has pushed away all the fair deck... like maverick, goblins, aggro loam, etc... why should I play combo only for tnn? And why only people with tnn decks can be succesful? Dont get me wrong... i play lands and i really dont care about tnn... but i think is a banneable card to give space to other decks....

I agree with you. i don't like that I'm seeing it more and more. I think thats because stone forge just makes it better than it should be. I don't pay much attention to aggro decks tho. Most are not around because they all have superior counterparts. Mav - D&T (I'm sure i'll get flamed for this comparison), goblins - merfolk, aggro loam - jund depths? punishing jund?

Sorry, I play combo near exclusively, think the card is atrocious for the general enjoyability and interestingness of the format, and should have a painful meeting with the banhammer. The sooner the better. I also complain loudly.

I agree but i don't think that will get it the ban hammer. Wotc doenst ban cards because they are not enjoyable or decrease interestingness. Additionally Sinkhole (lands destruction) and stasis should be banned too. They are mind numbingly boring cards and strategies to play against.

[Lord Seth]

I agree but i don't think that will get it the ban hammer. Wotc doenst ban cards because they are not enjoyable or decrease interestingness.

Actually, that was the reasoning given for the Affinity bans in Standard.

Additionally Sinkhole (lands destruction) and stasis should be banned too. They are mind numbingly boring cards and strategies to play against.

They also kinda suck, though. It doesn't matter how boring Stasis is to play against if Stasis isn't playable.

[apple713]

Actually, that was the reasoning given for the Affinity bans in Standard.

its like comparing apples to oranges when you compare legacy to the almost nonexistent diversity of standard. I see the point you are trying to make but that type of ban doesn't extend to legacy. Legacy is diverse enough to adapt.

The trinisphere example is justified because if trinisphere was not restricted workshop decks would dominate and have significantly more consistency than they do. You would then either be playing with trinisphere or against it. This is comparable to the Mental misstep conundrum we experienced previously. TNN however is nothing like this in the sense that you are either playing with it or against it. Some people may not even see it in a tournament they attend, even after playing 9 rounds.

[Darkenslight]

TNN is a poorly designed card. It's not broken, it just should have never been printed. Unfortunately the same is true for many other cards (see delver of secrets and mental misstep). TNN along the lines of WOTC's mistake with tarmogoyf. Not the same just similar in the sense that they neglected to test and think about how it shaped eternal formats. wTNN is the "combo" piece in aggro decks with an equipment. Fortunately he sucks against combo, and has little impact against control (miracles). The only people that are complaining about him are people that play fair decks... i.e. aggro / tempo. If he's that much of a problem for you pick up a fucking combo deck and deal with it like the rest of us.

If you are able to cast a TNN and equip him with something (typically turn 4) and I haven't won with a combo deck, I've already failed. All competitive legacy combo decks win by t4 unless they've been disrupted or incredibly unfortunate in their digging.

There are lots of mainstream answer to this poorly designed card with fucking hideous artwork...(i won't get a set because it looks so retarded). terminus, moat, humility, toxic deluge, liliana of the veil.

red can race it, and it doesn't generate any sort of card advantage at all by itself. If its untapped its a wall. If its attacking its 3 damage...on turn 4....Why are you complaining about 3 damage on turn 4....Standard decks can handle this card. If you can't you need to play better cards or not play legacy.

I agree with this logic: both Snapcaster and Delver should have been Red rather than Blue. But Wizards decided that Wizards Are Blue.

Morons.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Delver, if not blue then black. Not red. Jesus tits. Flying is not red.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[prateta]

Delver, if not blue then black. Not red. Jesus tits. Flying is not red.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

So all the red flying dragons are secretly black? That's racist!

[Lemnear]

The argument of "get over it"... "adapt to it" is repetead over the years of every single card banned until now...

Every card has an answer... but when a card generates a metagame around it... it should be banned. This card has pushed away all the fair deck... like maverick, goblins, aggro loam, etc... why should I play combo only for tnn? And why only people with tnn decks can be succesful? Dont get me wrong... i play lands and i really dont care about tnn... but i think is a banneable card to give space to other decks....

TNN did not push out Maverick, Goblins or Aggro Loam ... those decks were dead long before. What about doing some Background Research before claiming such nonsense? "I play strategy X, so I don't care" isn't very helpful overall and the reason I don't bring up combo decks discussing the fact, that atm most decklists start with either Delver, SFM or Griselbrand as their creatures

[sdematt]

I think Brain DeMars overestimates just HOW good the Spirit is. Who is going to play it? Death and Taxes. DnT gets another hatebear, but what are they cutting for it? Sure, they squeeze some in. The only real value you're getting is the surprise buttsex "Vial on 2 in response to Brainstorm." Other than that, you play around it,You'll put Jitte counters on your TNN, and it'll die just the same.

As for Brainstorm being bannable, I consider it to yes, be a keystone of the format. It would be like banning Shop in Vintage. Sure, Shop is good, and there's likely times of Shop dominance in Vintage, but banning it just throws everything out of whack.

As I've said before, print better cards for the other colours (especially black and red that are proactive strategies on their own, not just anti-blue cards), and/or stop printing MORE and more out of the colour pie blue cards.

-Matt

[apple713]

As I've said before, print better cards for the other colours (especially black and red that are proactive strategies on their own, not just anti-blue cards), and/or stop printing MORE and more out of the colour pie blue cards.

-Matt

yeah, red could use a complete overhaul.

[Feaor]

TNN is a poorly designed card. It's not broken, it just should have never been printed. Unfortunately the same is true for many other cards (see delver of secrets and mental misstep). TNN along the lines of WOTC's mistake with tarmogoyf. Not the same just similar in the sense that they neglected to test and think about how it shaped eternal formats. wTNN is the "combo" piece in aggro decks with an equipment. Fortunately he sucks against combo, and has little impact against control (miracles). The only people that are complaining about him are people that play fair decks... i.e. aggro / tempo. If he's that much of a problem for you pick up a fucking combo deck and deal with it like the rest of us.

If you are able to cast a TNN and equip him with something (typically turn 4) and I haven't won with a combo deck, I've already failed. All competitive legacy combo decks win by t4 unless they've been disrupted or incredibly unfortunate in their digging.

There are lots of mainstream answer to this poorly designed card with fucking hideous artwork...(i won't get a set because it looks so retarded). terminus, moat, humility, toxic deluge, liliana of the veil.

red can race it, and it doesn't generate any sort of card advantage at all by itself. If its untapped its a wall. If its attacking its 3 damage...on turn 4....Why are you complaining about 3 damage on turn 4....Standard decks can handle this card. If you can't you need to play better cards or not play legacy.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you whether or not TNN should be banned as you're not going to change your mind, but you completely missed my point here. Whether or not you think TNN should be banned, I think you would have to be insane to claim that TNN isn't on WotC radar due to the general backlash from the community over it. So the point of my last post was to say its more likely that TNN gets banned in the next few months to a year than there is of something getting unbanned because it doesn't make sense to shake up a format which hasn't quite settled yet. So I'd say the earliest something would get unbanned if TNN isn't banned would probably be September as I think by that time the metagame will likely have sufficiently stabilized.