All B/R update speculation.

[nedleeds]

pillar of the format .... format defining .... the glue that holds .... go play modern

None of that actually means anything, you sheep are just reiterating whatever your semi pro idol pooped out on a premium article.

If anything 'defines' Legacy it's the beta dual lands, and the push and pull between them and things like fetchlands and wasteland.

Brainstorm is much more ban worthy with respect to quite a few cards currently on the banned list that it's not even debatable. It's ubiquitous, it breaks other cards, it

[Mewens]

Apologies if I'm jumping the gun in responding, nedleeds -- your post looks cut off.

But I'm not convinced that ubiquity and card-enabling are, alone, worthy of banning; part of the problem is that, if Brainstorm's gone, then Ponder replaces it, and Preordain steps in for Ponder, and Serum Visions or Predict or Portent take up 3rd string duty.

Legacy's card-filtering is unique among the formats; it can easily and cheaply sculpt its hand in a way Modern can't touch, but it lacks the raw card advantage and tutors that help define Vintage. It's not incorrect to say that one of Legacy's defining features is its cantrip suite (of which Brainstorm is the best and most iconic).

I feel like the properties that set Brainstorm apart are a) its Instant speed at 1 mana; other cantrips are generally slowtrips, 2 mana or sorceries. Those cantrips each offer less tactical flexibility, which makes their choices more interesting (and actually skill-intensive, at least comparatively); and b) its ability to create virtual card advantage by shuffling away dead cards.

If Brainstorm needs to be banned, it's based on those 2 qualities, not on ubiquity – otherwise, we'd be talking about banning Wasteland.

[sdematt]

If Golgari Charm and Liliana didn't exist, for those of you who think TNN shouldn't be banned, would it be ban worthy then?


-Matt

[death]

Ponder is trash. If Brainstorm gets the banhammer, sure Ponder can take its place but blue-based control decks won't be half as good. Wasteland is not as ubiquitous, it's not even a 4-of wherever deck it's played. Ubiquity is one of the reasons, but not the only reason a card gets banned.

Brainstorm overpowered and ubiquitous, true. But the problem with banning Brainstorm is that, combo may tear the format in half. Force of will is not the only card that keeps combo in check, but Brainstorm as well. In legacy, we don't have moxen, Mana Drain, Mental Misstep and Workshop > Chalice/Sphere. The decision to ban a card has nothing to do with it being iconic, a pillar or skill-tester, it's more of the overall impact to the format where it's played.

Is Show and Tell ban-worthy? Yes. But what's the point in banning when ANT and Reanimator exist. If these decks goldfish at turn 2/3, SnT decks are goddamn slower, weaker to discard and red blasts. And when you play competitive, expect to see the best creatures on top tables tl;dr I see no point in whining.

[clavio]

Ponder is trash. If Brainstorm gets the banhammer, sure Ponder can take its place but blue-based control decks won't be half as good. Wasteland is not as ubiquitous, it's not even a 4-of wherever deck it's played. Ubiquity is one of the reasons, but not the only reason a card gets banned.

Brainstorm overpowered and ubiquitous, true. But the problem with banning Brainstorm is that, combo may tear the format in half. Force of will is not the only card that keeps combo in check, but Brainstorm as well. In legacy, we don't have moxen, Mana Drain, Mental Misstep and Workshop > Chalice/Sphere. The decision to ban a card have nothing to do with it being iconic, a pillar or skill-tester, it's more of the overall impact to the format where it's played.

But combo decks lose Brainstorm too. Ever Brainstorm-> Merchant Scroll (for example)? Pretty broken!

[death]

Control losing Brainstorm is a bigger deal than combo losing it in my opinion.

[KntrellCL]

TNN did not push out Maverick, Goblins or Aggro Loam ... those decks were dead long before. What about doing some Background Research before claiming such nonsense? "I play strategy X, so I don't care" isn't very helpful overall and the reason I don't bring up combo decks discussing the fact, that atm most decklists start with either Delver, SFM or Griselbrand as their creatures

Last year before TNN print, if you wanted to play goblins, maverick or aggro loam... was an acceptable choice, now that is totally negated by tnn. Dont try to be a smartass, 4c loam was a deck and got totally rejected by tnn... ignoring punishing fire, decay, devastating dreams, tarmogoyf, countryside crusher and knight of the reliquary.

Now is just playing a sfm tnn deck, combo or some kind of pox... give it a rest.

You can play around every card... but that doesnt mean its healthy

[Lemnear]

Last year before TNN print, if you wanted to play goblins, maverick or aggro loam... was an acceptable choice, now that is totally negated by tnn. Dont try to be a smartass, 4c loam was a deck and got totally rejected by tnn... ignoring punishing fire, decay, devastating dreams, tarmogoyf, countryside crusher and knight of the reliquary.

Now is just playing a sfm tnn deck, combo or some kind of pox... give it a rest.

You can play around every card... but that doesnt mean its healthy

You are aware that with BUG Control and Jund Depths there are 2 Loam decks in the metagame that have a pretty good game against TNN?

The card Loam/P.Fire/Goofy/Crusher/KotR looses too isn't TNN, it's Rest in Piece.

Control losing Brainstorm is a bigger deal than combo losing it in my opinion.

I dare to claim the opposite as a player piloting both. Not being able to shuffle away dead combo pieces is more backbreaking that having a hand flooded with several counter/TNN/SFM ;)

[Lord Seth]

The card Loam/P.Fire/Goofy/Crusher/KotR looses too isn't TNN, it's Rest in Piece.

I thought it was Deathrite Shaman?

[JBlaze]

As much people complain, it is the blue decks that keep combo in check.

The ban Brainstorm side seems to imagine this midrange utopia where goblins and necatl can run side by side holding hands. The reality would be more like "nice forest bro, sorry you died on turn 2"

[Lemnear]

I thought it was Deathrite Shaman?

Both got printed in the same Expansion and both see a lot of play. DRS can be solved by P.Fire, RIP shuts down basically half of the cards

[Dice_Box]

The ban Brainstorm side seems to imagine this midrange utopia where goblins and necatl can run side by side holding hands. The reality would be more like "nice forest bro, sorry you died on turn 2"

This is bull, fish can hose combo without a Brainstorm in sight. Painter can too. DnT...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Control losing Brainstorm is a bigger deal than combo losing it in my opinion.

Other decks have situationally dead cards, combo decks have independently dead cards. SnT would lose a lot more often if it couldn't get rid of the two extra copies of Emrakul in its hand, etc..

[Scott]

Enough with this lack-of-interaction bullshit.

Just because it turns off all of your non-evasive beats, chump-blockers, and targeted spot removal, doesn't mean there aren't ways to deal with TNN, even when paired with SFM and Batterskull (Jitte isn't as oppressive with TNN as B.Skull is). It's called control.

Tabernacle, Liliana 2.0, Smallpox, Deed, Deluge, Terminus, etc. are all playable to some extent in Legacy and can deal with it regardless of what equipment is attached to it.

Of course there are ways to deal with TNN. Creative cards that made people rethink their strategies, e.g. not guaranteed cheap spot removal, swinging/blocking, equipping, would be awesome. Some creature with an onerous triggered ability that makes any player who targets, blocks, enchants, or damages it sacrifice shit or something. It would incentivize other tactics, adding even more action and interaction, without TNN's more absolute "Resolves, now probably not much else happens" shtick :/ And probly not another blue guy..

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As much people complain, it is the blue decks that keep combo in check.

The ban Brainstorm side seems to imagine this midrange utopia where goblins and necatl can run side by side holding hands. The reality would be more like "nice forest bro, sorry you died on turn 2"

Every non-shitty combo deck runs Brainstorm, and gets more mileage out of it than non-combo decks.

This is a stupid argument.

[KntrellCL]

You are aware that with BUG Control and Jund Depths there are 2 Loam decks in the metagame that have a pretty good game against TNN?

The card Loam/P.Fire/Goofy/Crusher/KotR looses too isn't TNN, it's Rest in Piece.



I dare to claim the opposite as a player piloting both. Not being able to shuffle away dead combo pieces is more backbreaking that having a hand flooded with several counter/TNN/SFM ;)

Jund depths is a pox deck and a combo within... and bug control is a landstill deck. And im not talking about loam? Loam doesnt care about tnn, but creatures like kotr, crusher and goyf seems very affected by tnn... also, rest in peace is a strong card against loam based decks, but it is expected to play against it... i never play without krosan grips, decays and play around gy nukes (tormods crypt, rip, leyline) and thats fair since im playing with the gy as an extension of my hand... but tnn is just something else... is better than hexproof, regenerates, unbloqueable, etc... is almost an emblem with multiple tasks... if it doesnt get ban it would be just for respect for every single customer who bought 4 grixis commander deck.

Also,

[JPoJohnson]

Combo and control both find Brainstorm necessary to keep their deck flowing the way it needs to. I don't see how one NEEDS it more than the other. Dead combo pieces and the wrong type of control cards both lose the game.

[Dzra]

Other than Fish, every control and tempo deck relies on Brainstorm for two main purposes: 1. to fix the fact that, depending on the matchup, half of its answers are dead and 2. to help recoup card disadvantage from FoW. Jund can exist because it has the raw card advantage to not care if it is holding dead cards in hand. Many combo decks would lose a lot from banning Brainstorm, but there are many that wouldn't bat an eyelash. TES can easily shrug off losing Brainstorm. Do we really want a format full of nothing but decks like Jund, Dredge, Oops All Spells, and Belcher? That sounds a lot like Modern, and we know how that is going. I apologize if I sound tired of this argument. I am.

[Barook]

Other than Fish, every control and tempo deck relies on Brainstorm for two main purposes: 1. to fix the fact that, depending on the matchup, half of its answers are dead and 2. to help recoup card disadvantage from FoW. Jund can exist because it has the raw card advantage to not care if it is holding dead cards in hand. Many combo decks would lose a lot from banning Brainstorm, but there are many that wouldn't bat an eyelash. TES can easily shrug off losing Brainstorm. Do we really want a format full of nothing but decks like Jund, Dredge, Oops All Spells, and Belcher? That sounds a lot like Modern, and we know how that is going. I apologize if I sound tired of this argument. I am.

It's absolutely laughable that people still argue that blue would be dead if Brainstorm got banned, completely ignoring the fact that other high quality cantrips exist. It's like some people have developed a "Stockholm Syndrom", considering how Brainstorm has taken the format hostage.

Oops All Spells and Belcher might gain a few win percentages more, but they're still inconsistent piles. And since when is countermagic good against Dredge? Other decks are able to find the GY hate without Brainstorm, you know.

[Tammit67]

Wait, are we talking about fish or merfolk?

Brainstorm is pretty good, i actually think tempo strategies would miss it most. Nothing like refueling with brainstorm while nimble mongoose brings the beats