Modern Banned List

[Arsenal]

These decks are completely different. Merfolk builds tend to be aggressive, while Faeries are also more permission-based and much more flexible. I wouldn't say Merfolk is tempo oriented. This may be true for Legacy, but in Modern they are just an Aggro.dec with a little amount of spells to help getting the beats in.

While Fae is able to switch from being the aggro deck in a given matchup to being the control deck, I'd be interested in seeing if it can be aggro enough to legitimately pressure UWR Control and have enough control elements to out-control UWR Control.

[MaximumC]

If people want to play with Ponder, JtMS, SFM, BBE, etc so badly, there's a format where you can do that... it's called Legacy. I'll never understand why Legacy players complain that Modern doesn't have Card X, when you can just play with Card X in Legacy. Modern is a completely different format trying to accomplish completely different things than Legacy/Vintage is. Why can't people understand and accept that? Why does every Legacy player want Modern to be Legacy-lite when Wizards clearly has stated and shown that they want Modern to be Super-Standard.

I would have no problem with Modern if there was support for Legacy. The problem is that Modern is Wizards' answer to the Reserve List. It's a good solution. Over time, with new sets coming out regularly, Modern will grow to be close to as interesting as Legacy. It cannot be helped. You print 10,000 cards, there is gonna be broken synergies between some of them. Legacy and Vintage become niche because of card availability, but Modern rises and we can keep playing Magic. It's all good.

But instead of letting this happen, Wizards is dedicated to making Modern a "Super-Standard" format, as you said. Modern is institutionally designed to be less interesting than Legacy. We get a game of whack-a-mole with each banned and restricted list update.

I am happy they are active in taking cards OFF the list, too, so maybe there is hope.

[MrShine]

If people want to play with Ponder, JtMS, SFM, BBE, etc so badly, there's a format where you can do that... it's called Legacy. I'll never understand why Legacy players complain that Modern doesn't have Card X, when you can just play with Card X in Legacy. Modern is a completely different format trying to accomplish completely different things than Legacy/Vintage is. Why can't people understand and accept that? Why does every Legacy player want Modern to be Legacy-lite when Wizards clearly has stated and shown that they want Modern to be Super-Standard.

This. Modern is its own beast, and what I consider to be a bonus format for already owning many of the staples for Legacy. No more DRS? Whatever, play Legacy, BUG or Rock or Jund.

All the changes are good, and will shake up the dominance of BGx.

TBH I like that the format isn't closer to Legacy; it plays like its own game and gets cards into the spotlight that would never make it in legacy. Restoration Angel, Lingering Souls, Birthing Pod, and now Bitterblossom, are all fringe playable in Legacy but now they get their time to shine.


@MaximumC - Their willingness to take cards off the list will help keep the format fresh and moving in a way that Legacy doesn't have. Sure, its similar to the old extended, which I thought was pretty cool, outside of the manabases rotating. While the card pool will be ever expanding, like you said, like Legacy most of the cards released will have little to no impact on modern due to the same reason - low impact when compared to the best that the format (be it Legacy or Modern) has to offer. So while Modern WILL grow substatially, there is a low chance of it ever growing too much like Legacy because it seems that the era of printing strong enough cards is waning. They are never going to print another Daze or Wasteland, and that in and of itself will keep the formats different enough when it comes down to it. Which means that as long as there is a player base, both formats will be able to thrive.

[Arsenal]

I would have no problem with Modern if there was support for Legacy. The problem is that Modern is Wizards' answer to the Reserve List. It's a good solution. Over time, with new sets coming out regularly, Modern will grow to be close to as interesting as Legacy. It cannot be helped. You print 10,000 cards, there is gonna be broken synergies between some of them. Legacy and Vintage become niche because of card availability, but Modern rises and we can keep playing Magic. It's all good.

But instead of letting this happen, Wizards is dedicated to making Modern a "Super-Standard" format, as you said. Modern is institutionally designed to be less interesting than Legacy. We get a game of whack-a-mole with each banned and restricted list update.

I am happy they are active in taking cards OFF the list, too, so maybe there is hope.

So because Wizards doesn't support Legacy, but does support Modern, that's why you have a problem with Modern? That doesn't even make sense. Wizards' support of Modern (prize structure, number of tourneys per 12 months, etc) is comparable to the grassroots support Legacy has enjoyed for years (SCG Opens, BoM-style tourneys, etc), so you're not really missing out on anything if you're willing to travel for SCG Legacy Opens and other large Legacy tourneys.

Modern as Super Standard makes so much more business-financial sense than molding it into Legacy-Lite. Wizards can still make money off Modern players wanting to crack packs of in-circulation boosters for Sphinx's Revelation (played in UWR Control), or for Shocklands, or for a plethora of other Modern staples/playables. If Wizards made it's Banned list unbanned as sooo many Legacy players suggest it do, then how does Wizards make money off people buying $35 Stoneforge Mystics from secondary sellers/vendors?

And Modern isn't less interesting than Legacy, it's just different. There are interactions, boardstates and cards that are common in Modern that you cannot find in Legacy and vice-versa. Force of Will on your opponent's Charbelcher isn't more "interesting" than Path to Exile in response to Splinter Twin on Pestermite, it's just different.

Now yes, Legacy's cardpool is vast compared to Modern, so you will find more variety of decks, so if you equate "interest" to "variety", then you are correct. But I find Sealed Limited to be interesting in it's own unique way, even though variety is super duper low. Same with Modern, it offers me experiences that I cannot find in Legacy and vice-versa. Why people want Modern to be Legacy-lite, when the cardpool clearly cannot support it, just doesn't make sense.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I think of Modern as being a constant good standard format. It'll never be as complex or wide open as legacy, but it's certainly better than vast majority or standard seasons.

[twndomn]

On the topic of Legacy vs Modern, here's the bottom line:
Legacy is a format built on top of Force of Will.
Modern is a format built by the dynamic ever changing Ban list, since it doesn't have FoW.

There really is no denying in that. Look at how often Legacy ban/unban cards. This infrequent change in the ban list of Legacy definitely has something to do with FoW. Now, look at Modern. What is Wizard's solution for lack of Force of Will? Ban whatever's popular. If Bitterblossom's popular, axe it. Once something else becomes trendy, unban it.

I'm not favoring one approach over another. That's for everyone to decide. If you favor stability of the list and a usually diverse Top 8 in most major tournaments at any point in time, obviously Legacy is your cup of tea. If you favor an active ban list being babysit by Wizard and card prices are constantly in flux, you should go for Modern.

[DragoFireheart]

I think of Modern as being a constant good standard format. It'll never be as complex or wide open as legacy, but it's certainly better than vast majority or standard seasons.

I can agree with this. Standard is a waste of time.

[Arsenal]

If you favor stability of the list and a usually diverse Top 8 in most major tournaments at any point in time, obviously Legacy is your cup of tea. If you favor an active ban list being babysit by Wizard and card prices are constantly in flux, you should go for Modern.

"An active ban list babysit by Wizards"... isn't this what Legacy players have been screaming for? That Wizards take an active interest in the format and start unbanning/banning stuff? You believe that Wizards not touching the Banned list is due to FoW while I believe it's because they're apathetic to Legacy and don't really care enough to bother looking into the format.

And if Wizards did start taking an active interest in Legacy and banning/unbanning cards, you'd see an appropriate shift in card prices on Legacy staples too. Your analysis of Modern is way, way off.

[Phoenix Ignition]

"An active ban list babysit by Wizards"... isn't this what Legacy players have been screaming for? That Wizards take an active interest in the format and start unbanning/banning stuff? You believe that Wizards not touching the Banned list is due to FoW while I believe it's because they're apathetic to Legacy and don't really care enough to bother looking into the format.

This is exactly why we're seeing so many new faces in this and similar Modern threads across the site. Exclusive Legacy players have been wishing for things to be unbanned for months. It happens for Modern and they are upset, so we see people posting garbage about why Modern sucks because the formats best decks keep changing due to the dynamic banlist. We get those "LOL I"M NEVER BUYING A DECK BECAUSE IT'LL JUST BE BAD IN A MONTH" even though that's what any unbanning/banning can do to a format, and unbanning is what the majority of people want.

[twndomn]

"An active ban list babysit by Wizards"... isn't this what Legacy players have been screaming for? That Wizards take an active interest in the format and start unbanning/banning stuff? You believe that Wizards not touching the Banned list is due to FoW while I believe it's because they're apathetic to Legacy and don't really care enough to bother looking into the format.

And if Wizards did start taking an active interest in Legacy and banning/unbanning cards, you'd see an appropriate shift in card prices on Legacy staples too. Your analysis of Modern is way, way off.

Who are you to say that Wizard's apathetic to Legacy? Do you work for WotC, or what makes you qualified to make that ridiculous statement? Just for your way, way off analysis of Legacy, Wizard did ban Mental Misstep in 2011 and unban Land Tax in 2012. Not changing anything in 2013 is definitely not because of your conspiracy. I don't see you have anything valid.

This is exactly why we're seeing so many new faces in this and similar Modern threads across the site. Exclusive Legacy players have been wishing for things to be unbanned for months. It happens for Modern and they are upset, so we see people posting garbage about why Modern sucks because the formats best decks keep changing due to the dynamic banlist. We get those "LOL I"M NEVER BUYING A DECK BECAUSE IT'LL JUST BE BAD IN A MONTH" even though that's what any unbanning/banning can do to a format, and unbanning is what the majority of people want.

You have no evidence to support your claim of more new faces in Modern. If there is an influx of Modern players, why isn't that attributed to card availability and pricing? You cannot determine correlation or causality blindly, that's a dangerous jump to conclusion.

I certainly don't see Legacy players together agreeing and wishing for a particular card to be unbanned. I do see players across all formats wanting something to be banned every time, it's people's nature to whine about certain cards.

[Arsenal]

Who are you to say that Wizard's apathetic to Legacy? Do you work for WotC, or what makes you qualified to make that ridiculous statement? Just for your way, way off analysis of Legacy, Wizard did ban Mental Misstep in 2011 and unban Land Tax in 2012. Not changing anything in 2013 is definitely not because of your conspiracy. I don't see you have anything valid.

Unbanning Land Tax, an irrelevant relic from yesteryear, in 2012 means Wizards cares about Legacy? Tightening the Reserve List policy means Wizards cares about Legacy? Them printing Delver of Secrets and TNN means Wizards cares about Legacy? Them dropping all official tourney support for Legacy means Wizards cares about Legacy? Are you being serious right now?

[twndomn]

Unbanning Land Tax, an irrelevant relic from yesteryear, in 2012 means Wizards cares about Legacy? Tightening the Reserve List policy means Wizards cares about Legacy? Them printing Delver of Secrets and TNN means Wizards cares about Legacy? Them dropping all official tourney support for Legacy means Wizards cares about Legacy? Are you being serious right now?

Yeah, you should be more serious and think it through before you present your argument. Rather than asking me what would define Wizards caring about Legacy, why don't you PRESENT real fact, instead of your wild conspiracy about how Wizards Not caring about Legacy. In your eyes, printing Delver and TNN means Wizard doesn't care about Legacy, that's your subjective judgement, goes to show how little understanding of the format you have. Once again, GP Paris on February 14-16, 2014, which format is it? You're wrong again on the "Them dropping all official tourney support" opinion.

Seriously, do some homework before you post would do you some good.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, you should be more serious and think it through before you present your argument. Rather than asking me what would define Wizards caring about Legacy, why don't you PRESENT real fact, instead of your wild conspiracy about how Wizards Not caring about Legacy. In your eyes, printing Delver and TNN means Wizard doesn't care about Legacy, that's your subjective judgement, goes to show how little understanding of the format you have. Once again, GP Paris on February 14-16, 2014, which format is it? You're wrong again on the "Them dropping all official tourney support" opinion.

Seriously, do some homework before you post would do you some good.

Didn't know 2 out of 46 tourneys counts as support. Cool. I understand the format just fine, you just don't agree with my opinions.

[JDK]

Enough with all (I know "all" is unfair) your half-baked rambling about which format is superior. Bottom line is, and I think we can all agree on this (at least if you actually use your brain), that each format has different appeals.
There is no need for arrogant and fanatic trolling as well as exaggeration. If you don't like Modern, don't try to provoke people who do - and vice versa. Just play whichever format you like.

Geez, everytime the same shit...

[Timber]

You have no evidence to support your claim of more new faces in Modern. If there is an influx of Modern players, why isn't that attributed to card availability and pricing? You cannot determine correlation or causality blindly, that's a dangerous jump to conclusion.

Right after you said this:

"On the topic of Legacy vs Modern, here's the bottom line:
Legacy is a format built on top of Force of Will.
Modern is a format built by the dynamic ever changing Ban list, since it doesn't have FoW.".

If Modern is a "format built by the dynamic ever changing Ban list", then Jund should have been dropped after the Bloodbraid Elf ban. The GP Detroit top 8 is evidence that it didn't. Noble Hierarch is sold out everywhere, which is evidence that the DRS ban will not prevent people from playing Pod and Jund.

The number of control decks running Snapcaster Mage, Sphinx's Revelation, and Restoration Angel is evidence that newly-printed cards have a pretty significant effect on the format too.

I would agree that the Ban list is part of what shapes the Modern format. I think that saying that the format is built on the Ban list is "a dangerous jump to conclusion".

[Timber]

So...back on the thread topic:

Obviously Deathrite Shaman is only one piece of graveyard hate, but being that it's a pretty big one, is anyone considering more 'yard-based strategies?

Dredgevine?
Solar Flare?
Loam engine?
Griselbanned?
Living End?

[Arsenal]

As I stated, Snapcaster automatically gets better. Living End obviously gets better too. Beyond that, Idk. I mean, Gifts decks actually used 4 DRS themselves to ramp on color, so I don't know what'll happen there (not like they were top tier, but randomly powerful enough to be aware of). And wasn't Grizzeldaddy more about it's own inconsistency than about opposing DRS?

[Phoenix Ignition]

You have no evidence to support your claim of more new faces in Modern. If there is an influx of Modern players, why isn't that attributed to card availability and pricing? You cannot determine correlation or causality blindly, that's a dangerous jump to conclusion.

I think it's funny how much you want to start arguments. Check what I said... wait, I'll just requote it because I doubt you would:

This is exactly why we're seeing so many new faces in this and similar Modern threads across the site.

I never did nor will I claim that more people are playing Modern. I'm claiming that right now, the number of people posting in the Modern section of this site is much greater due to the ban/unban. We get trash comments like "LOL Modern keeps changing, I'm never touching that format!" Also check out the "All B/R update speculation" thread if you want to see legacy players flaming the modern format.

But yeah, it's easier to try to turn what someone said into something else entirely and then demand proof of it.

I certainly don't see Legacy players together agreeing and wishing for a particular card to be unbanned. I do see players across all formats wanting something to be banned every time, it's people's nature to whine about certain cards.

Survival of the Fittest now, Land Tax 6 months ago, there's always something everyone wishes was taken off.

So...back on the thread topic:

Obviously Deathrite Shaman is only one piece of graveyard hate, but being that it's a pretty big one, is anyone considering more 'yard-based strategies?

Dredgevine?
Solar Flare?
Loam engine?
Griselbanned?
Living End?

I think we'll see UR storm coming back. It was a good deck until DRS PLUS Scooze were being played, that's when there was a critical density of graveyard hate to make the deck much less consistent. Now that DRS is gone I predict we'll see this deck (among a few others) see a huge boost in popularity. I'm a bit scared of this one, but I do tend to play white decks with RiP for that general reason anyway.

[JPoJohnson]

As I stated, Snapcaster automatically gets better. Living End obviously gets better too. Beyond that, Idk. I mean, Gifts decks actually used 4 DRS themselves to ramp on color, so I don't know what'll happen there (not like they were top tier, but randomly powerful enough to be aware of). And wasn't Grizzeldaddy more about it's own inconsistency than about opposing DRS?

Not with the Necrotic Ooze version...

Either way though. I think that this means harder Gravehate will make its way to the sideboards and we'll see how that affects everything.

[JDK]

I think we'll see UR storm coming back. It was a good deck until DRS PLUS Scooze were being played, that's when there was a critical density of graveyard hate to make the deck much less consistent. Now that DRS is gone I predict we'll see this deck (among a few others) see a huge boost in popularity. I'm a bit scared of this one, but I do tend to play white decks with RiP for that general reason anyway.

I've continued to play UR Storm on MODO after the ban and DRS wasn't a problem most of the time (not saying it wasn't a problem in general). Now that DRS is gone, the pre-board MUs are slightly better, but people will probably pack more Relics or similar stuff and you have to keep in mind that Aggro-Control will have a new contender in Faeries, which is not a cakewalk for Storm and most likely a really bad MU for Living End and Reanimator.