Chinese fakes

[HonorBasquiat]

I guess I've gotten you to admit what they are doing is illegal. Or buying from a third-party doesn't make much of a difference. I'll count those as minor wins. I'm not judging you, I'm trying to explain your actions has reprecussions for the rest of us. You say that you don't plan on selling or trading them, but what's the guarantee that is even true or will be true forever? What if someone steals your cards or you decide to sell out?

Let's say that it's true you won't ever release them to the wild but so what? The prescence of these degrades the confidence of these in the open market thus people will only feel comfortable buying these from reputable vendors. Demand goes up, so does price which exacerberates the problem you were hoping to "solve".

You just said this had nothing to do with morality, you said this had to do with me breaking the law. And now you realize I'm not breaking the law, and you are telling me this is about morality. Which one is it?

Your claim that demand will rise because of fakes which exacerbates the problem, but this is totally baseless. You have no tangible evidence that what you are saying is true. Do you understand that? Historically, counterfeiting does not affect true values of products. This is true with Pokemon cards, this is true with Nike Dunks. This is true with Magic the Gathering cards.

Bed Decks Palyer, I'm sure you are a great father, and a hard worker at your job and I really mean that. I'm not a father and I work fewer hours than you, but I don't see why that means when we play MTG you should have an advantage. This just goes back to my gameplay argument. I don't need to waste real money I don't have on cardboard. Passable proxies allow me to do this.

It sounds like you guys just don't want me to have as much fun as you guys did, because "I didn't work as hard" but that's stupid, and working hard outside of gameplay shouldn't be a criteria.

[Dzra]

By the way I already addressed this, people like owning real cards, especially collectors. Many people like supporting Wizards, people like supporting their local game shops, some people don't like shopping online, etc. I'm buying fake cards, because I can't afford real cards.

As you say so eloquently, some of us are supporting Wizards and gaming stores by purchasing real cards. You are supporting counterfeiters and the third parties that disperse them.

If you really want, you can say I'm indirectly supporting this regardless, because I'm supporting the creation of the fake cards (even if I'm buying them second hand), but it's a really bad argument.

The argument is not bad; it's very simple. Magic is built around the secondary market. Buying Magic cards creates a demand for Magic cards. This is obvious in the way prices rise when more people want a certain card. It does not matter if you bought it off of eBay or whatever third party. Buying a Jace from Johnny is the same as buying a Jace from SCG which is the same as opening a bunch of boosters and keeping all the Jaces you find. Buying Jace creates a demand for it.

Buying fake Magic cards creates a demand for fake Magic cards. Just like real Magic cards, it doesn't matter if you purchased it from the source or from a third party. The fact that you purchased it at all means that demand was created.

Here's a cute metaphor to help you out. Billy likes to bake, so he bakes ten meat pies. Five people buy a pie and eat it. Five more people buy a pie to resell it. Three of these people are able to resell their pies, however the last two cannot. Billy doesn't know, nor does he care. Next time, Billy will make another ten pies because he sold them all the first time. Like last time, five people buy a pie and eat it. However, this time only three people buy a pie to resell it because the remaining two are still stuck with the old pie. Billy realizes that the demand for ten pies simply isn't there and decides to only bake eight pies the next time.

Demand doesn't care what link on the chain you are. If you buy something, you create demand. If people don't buy and the counterfeiters are left with a warehouse full of useless cardboard then do you think they are going to keep making counterfeits? If people are banging at their doors for more and more cheap fakes, do you think they are going to stop?

[Namida]

Would you judge and shame anyone who bought from these businesses and claim that are responsible for child labor, union suppression, and small business suppression?

Yes, I would.

You are judging and shaming me because I am potentially supporting a factory that makes cards fake cards, but you refuse to judge and shame people who support businesses and factories that do things that are much worse.

Since your position seems to be that no one should judge you because you assume no one judges customers of other bad companies, where does your argument go from the point that you realize that people absolutely do judge those customers?

[MaximumC]

It sounds like you guys just don't want me to have as much fun as you guys did, because "I didn't work as hard" but that's stupid, and working hard outside of gameplay shouldn't be a criteria.

Hardly. How is paying a criminal necessary for you to have fun?

I'm a huge proponent of proxies. If you want to organize a Vintage or Legacy tournament, I'm first in line to argue for letting people have as many proxies as they like. I'll never look at you crosswise if you want to use a sharpied land as your general in EDH.

What is bad for the game -- and this isn't morality, it's economics -- is facilitating the production and distribution of cards that some people cannot tell apart from legitimate, honest-to-god Magic cards.

If you want to play proxies, sharpie a land. If you cannot possibly bring yourself to bear the thought of playing with such an ugly card, make or buy some transparency proxies. They're gorgeous and feel even better than Magic cards, I think, but no one would mistake them for the real deal. Or, you could do what I do, and blank out regular cards and use sharpies and felt tip pens to do some artwork and draw yourself a unique looking proxy card in black and white.

Putting money into the hands of people who want to not proxy, but outright COUNTERFEIT cards is bad.

[HonorBasquiat]

Yes, I would.



Since your position seems to be that no one should judge you because you assume no one judges customers of other bad companies, where does your argument go from the point that you realize that people absolutely do judge those customers?

If you really aren't a hypocrite, and you don't support or indirectly support companies that are unscrupulous, then I respect you, I honestly do. But you also should be judging people who buy packs at Wal Mart also.

Dzra, show me tangible evidence that passable proxies will hurt the value of your real cards.

[MaximumC]

Dzra, show me tangible evidence that passable proxies will hurt the value of your real cards.

Tangible? That will only happen after the crisis we're worried about hits.

Magic cards are absurdly expensive right now. There's a bubble. This bubble is dangerous because many of the subsidiary entities that support Magic are feeding off of the bubble. Now, we could either deflate the bubble gradually through controlled reprints and new formats, or we could cause a market panic because someone has figured out how to print fakes that fool most people, and demand for sight-unseen online sales plummet. Which one is going to cause more damage to these subsidiary industries?

[Dzra]

Dzra, show me tangible evidence that passable proxies will hurt the value of your real cards.

The closest example I can think of would be how piracy collapsed the physical media market for music or how tablet devices are putting physical bookstores out of business, but both of these examples are inadequate and incomplete. Obviously any evidence that counterfeiting MTG cards will affect MTG prices doesn't exist yet, but I imagine that if spoiled brats like you keep creating a demand for forgeries then we will get that evidence.

It sounds like you guys just don't want me to have as much fun as you guys did, because "I didn't work as hard" but that's stupid, and working hard outside of gameplay shouldn't be a criteria.

Grow up.

[davelin]

You just said this had nothing to do with morality, you said this had to do with me breaking the law. And now you realize I'm not breaking the law, and you are telling me this is about morality. Which one is it?

I didn't bring up morality, show me where I did.

Your claim that demand will rise because of fakes which exacerbates the problem, but this is totally baseless. You have no tangible evidence that what you are saying is true. Do you understand that? Historically, counterfeiting does not affect true values of products. This is true with Pokemon cards, this is true with Nike Dunks. This is true with Magic the Gathering cards.

By extension do you think it's okay to support other counterfeiting ventures then?

It sounds like you guys just don't want me to have as much fun as you guys did, because "I didn't work as hard" but that's stupid, and working hard outside of gameplay shouldn't be a criteria.

You're taking this way too personally if this is your conclusion, it is good for the whole community if these cards aren't produced. Many (including myself) have stated that high prices is harming the game but taking recourse by supporting illegal counterfeiting isn't the solution here. If your playgroups don't allow proxies then unfortunately you'll have to find another one.

[HonorBasquiat]

Tangible? That will only happen after the crisis we're worried about hits.

You realize there are already thousands and thousands of passable proxies "in circulation" already right? People are already enjoying passable proxies and your cards are still the same.

[MaximumC]

The closest example I can think of would be how piracy collapsed the physical media market for music or how tablet devices are putting physical bookstores out of business, but both of these examples are inadequate and incomplete. Obviously any evidence that counterfeiting MTG cards will affect MTG prices doesn't exist yet, but I imagine that if spoiled brats like you keep creating a demand for forgeries then we will get that evidence.

Grow up.

I agree with your conclusions, even if your analogy is a little shaky. Even so, we get nowhere insulting people by telling them "spoiled brats" and telling them to "grow up." All that will do is get sparks flying and eventually get the thread locked.

You realize there are already thousands and thousands of passable proxies "in circulation" already right? People are already enjoying passable proxies and your cards are still the same.

There is a point at which the problem is widespread enough that demand for cards online from sight-unseen retailers is going to dry up like an empty creek. That's the crisis we're all afraid of because that creek is where all the podcasts, web sites, articles, tournament organizers, etc all drink from.

[Dzra]

Even so, we get nowhere insulting people by telling them "spoiled brats" and telling them to "grow up." All that will do is get sparks flying and eventually get the thread locked.

I agree that insults will get us nowhere; however, I feel like I've been quite cordial up until this point, if you'll notice over the last several pages. This guy has finally struck a nerve with his baseless assumption that we are merely trying to rob him of Fun. If this thread got locked up, I don't believe I'd shed too many tears.

[HonorBasquiat]

I didn't bring up morality, show me where I did.



By extension do you think it's okay to support other counterfeiting ventures then?



You're taking this way too personally if this is your conclusion, it is good for the whole community if these cards aren't produced. Many (including myself) have stated that high prices is harming the game but taking recourse by supporting illegal counterfeiting isn't the solution here. If your playgroups don't allow proxies then unfortunately you'll have to find another one.

You initially said "Sigh. Do you understand that Magic the Gathering is a copyright-protected product and such it is ILLEGAL for another to reproduce it and sell it? It isn't about scruples or morality. It is ILLEGAL. There is no "might be doing something unscrupulous", they are doing something ILLEGAL."

In other words, you were saying I shouldn't buy passable proxies because it's against the law. Then I informed you that buying passable proxies isn't breaking any laws. After that, you change your argument from being "I'm breaking the law" to "what I am doing is creating problems I'm trying to solve which is bad".

As far as supporting other counterfeiting ventures, sure. My girlfriend has a fake Louis Vutton belt. I'm not judging her. She's not hurting anyone. You say I have to find another play group, but the reality is I don't. I'll just play with passable proxies.

Maximum C says "There is a point at which the problem is widespread enough that demand for cards online from sight-unseen retailers is going to dry up like an empty creek. That's the crisis we're all afraid of because that creek is where all the podcasts, web sites, articles, tournament organizers, etc all drink from." But that's just more baseless speculation. It certainly hasn't happened yet even though there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fake proxies already out there.

As far as I feel you are robbing my fun, I don't believe that about everyone here. But if you reread the thread, you will hear people saying things like "get a job, I paid for my cards, so why should you be able to play with me with cards that look real" It's just petty selfish nonsense.

[Guie]

It's a bad argument for two reasons. First, not everyone in the world is going to by counterfeits through a third party. Second, just because you directly or indirectly support a business model that might be doing something unscrupulous doesn't mean you are doing something morally wrong. I'll stress my Nike and WalMart example again. Would you judge and shame anyone who bought from these businesses and claim that are responsible for child labor, union suppression, and small business suppression?

MTG doesn't have to have a steep monetary barrier to entry, and it won't when I buy my fake cards. I'll finally be able to have good mana fixing in EDH without having to spend hundreds of dollars.

Bed Decks Palyer, let me get this straight, it's bad and elitist that I'm against children's sweat shops that exploit families? BTW, my Great grandfather did work in a field (he was a black sharecropper in the south) and I'm pretty sure he didn't do it with a big grin on his face. Why don't you tell people who buy packs at Wal Mart that they are part of the problem LGS's face, and they are wrong because they are supporting a business that harms LGS's? Because it would be a stupid argument. You are judging and shaming me because I am potentially supporting a factory that makes cards fake cards, but you refuse to judge and shame people who support businesses and factories that do things that are much worse. How is that not hypocritical?

Bed Decks Palyer has argument A

HonorBasquiat disregards key points of argument A and presents argument B

HonorBasquiat attacks argument B

[Dzra]

It's just petty selfish nonsense.

Buy real Magic cards or make your own proxies, like the rest of us have been doing for years = Petty and Selfish.

Purchase cheap counterfeits, to the detriment of the Magic community as a whole = Totally fine, probably even Just.

[MaximumC]

I'll just play with passable proxies.

* * *

But if you reread the thread, you will hear people saying things like "get a job, I paid for my cards, so why should you be able to play with me with cards that look real" It's just petty selfish nonsense.

Why is it important to you that your proxies are "passable" and "look real" if you are not trying to do something dishonest? (i.e. trick your opponent or trading partner into assuming its the real deal). Have you seen some of the full art proxies people use on transparencies? They're better looking than regular cards!

Buy real Magic cards or make your own proxies, like the rest of us have been doing for years = Petty and Selfish.

Purchase cheap counterfeits, to the detriment of the Magic community as a whole = Totally fine, probably even Just.

You're letting him get under your skin now. He didn't say that buying real cards was petty and selfish, he said that anyone with a problem with him financially supporting counterfeiters is being petty and selfish. Not a whole lot better, I know, but let's be accurate so we don't keep going off into personal attacks.

[HonorBasquiat]

What it comes down to is that I'm not doing anything illegal, I'm not selling or trading the proxy cards as real cards. No one has proven that these proxies will hurt the value of your cards, or LGS's or Wizards. No one has provided evidence to prove anything close to those things happening. Counterfeit yugioh cards, along with Pokemon and baseball cards have existed for years, and they haven't hurt the market or value of the real cards. There are already hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of passable Magic the Gathering proxies "in the wild" and your cards are just fine. I just want to have a near identical MTG experience that others have, except I don't have thousands of dollars to spend. Until you can prove that I'm harming you, or anyone, or gameplay, you are going to just have to deal with it.

[MaximumC]

Until you can prove that I'm harming you, or anyone, or gameplay, you are going to just have to deal with it.

Are you saying that you are convincing people that your counterfeits are real, but that its ok because you do not believe people doing that will cause any problems for Magic?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Warning, incoming staircase effect!

I just realized that there are three other aspects that the undistinguishable fakes have. Oneof them is linked to gameplay, so if the dude sees me, he might have some funny response.

First, if the fakes become widespread, they may have such an effect, that WotC may, in a "Die Sache ist erledigt" manner, definitely abandon any idea of massive reprints of old stuff. Who profits? IDK. Guess who's losing? The players that want real product for cheap, they are losing.
Also, and this is directly linked to the fakes issue: my gaming experience will be hit by the fact that the new cards use all the counter-counterfeits measures. Someone maybe likes the new holostamp, but I find it hideous and the only reason for its existance are the fakers. So here I'm losing.

Second, the Magic circle worked in a strange, yet communal/communital/communist/w-e-the-word way. The cards and money circulated from WotC to lgs to players and back and forth again, mostly remaining in the possession of the MtG community. Even though one may lose money on bad purchases, it was the Timmy-next-door who profited from this and who had the Scrublands for his Scrubsdeck; or it was the lgs who hosted tournaments/gave prize support or it was WotC who made new products. Fakers interrupted this circle, or leeched it, as the money they drain from the community are not sent back in any way; they won't lend you a real deck for GP, they won't build a cavern where the "I buy 800 fake Jaces only for myself, seriously" dudes may play tournaments, and they definitely have only one kind of R&D: how to better swindle the people. Who profits of this? Fakers, for sure, they wouldn't do it if they wouldn't profit. Who's losing? Time will tell. I won't fire of some "baseless assumptions". Otoh, I don't understand why should I take this risk. I'd rather believe my baseless instincts than cry a river over my money lost. Selfish? Yep. I thought it's a standard.

Third, and this goes esp. to HB.
You should understand one thing. If the players of your group directly said that they don't want to play with proxies and fakes, if they decided to not allow them at their table for w/e the stupidest reason they might have, anyone who brings the proxies or fakes to their table, simply CHEATS HIS FRIENDS. It's their right to disallow those objects and it's your duty to obey. If you don't like it, change their mind. If you can't, get out of their table. Nothing else and nothing in between.
They might not realize that you're cheating. And you might argue that what the eyes see the heart does not hurt. But from a higher moral principle, you're the same cheater as a guy that glues Cadaverous Bloom under his chair and pulls it out for the combo turn. Bear this in mind the next time you'd find the urge to learn us of unjusty and immoral world where people wear Nike shoes.


Please, someone lock this thread.

EDIT: Thinking of the last point: if someone is willing to cheat his friends, I'd seriously doubt the innocent reasons behind his purchase of seven gorillion of fake Tarmogoyfs.

[Lemnear]

This thread is still not locked?


@MaximumC
He stated (and I hopefully understand right), that his "friends" are elitist douches who don't let him play with proxies in their LGS events so he wants indistinguishable fakes to trick them. I would look out for new friends in that case, but he rather feeds the counterfeinting industry for tricking his "friends". So sad...


Edit: BDP makes me feel embarassed not being able to speak/write even one staight sentence in czech :/

[HonorBasquiat]

Why is it important to you that your proxies are "passable" and "look real" if you are not trying to do something dishonest? (i.e. trick your opponent or trading partner into assuming its the real deal). Have you seen some of the full art proxies people use on transparencies? They're better looking than regular cards!



You're letting him get under your skin now. He didn't say that buying real cards was petty and selfish, he said that anyone with a problem with him financially supporting counterfeiters is being petty and selfish. Not a whole lot better, I know, but let's be accurate so we don't keep going off into personal attacks.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. This is a good question. There are several reasons. One of them is because players are familiar with cards that are real or look real, other types of proxies, especially handwritten or sharpie proxies slow down and hinder gameplay because they encourage players to gawk, double take, and squint. Another primary reasons is because I don't see anything morally wrong about deceiving someone about my cards outside of a trade or transaction provided it doesn't affect game play. I know people who on principle don't want to play with fake cards, and they would never let me play with full art proxies, or sharpie proxies. Some of them don't provide reasons but are adamant about them, other people say that you should only be able to play with cards you earned or actually bought, but this is a silly arbitrary rule that doesn't impact gameplay. There are also instances where I will disclose I am playing with proxies, and those people won't care, but I still like my cards looking like real cards because it looks cool.

Earlier someone said that passable proxies ruin the meta because they encourage players to arms race and start playing with stupidly powerful cards, not only can the same be said about regular proxies, but the same could be said about a wealthy player who just chooses to spend a lot of money on powerful cards.

By the way, what I said is, anyone who thinks that I shouldn't be able to play on an equal playing field with them because I didn't spend as much money is being petty. Specifically with the mentality, "you didn't spend $3000, so you don't deserve to play Stoneblade. You can play Stoneblade with crappy obvious proxies, but once it's similar to my $3000 experience, I have to put my foot down because you are having just as much of a MTG experience as me without paying for it. That's not fair." That's just elitist nonsense.

I have heard many people (even in this thread) who have spent thousands of dollars on cards, but have no problem with passable proxies provided they aren't being used to dupe people financially, because they eliminate an arbitrary barrier to entry to play a game (how much $$$ you have) and encourage more competition.

Edit: @Lemnear : Not just LGS events, but even in casual games.