[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Rock Lee]

Where'd you read that?

I also wonder what Spirit does against NO/Hoof

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Using your words would greatly add to my ability to answer poorly phrased questions.

Assuming you are referring to elves being a poor matchup, this has been opined ad nauseam on these forums, I two fisted test, and speak with elves players.

Regarding beating natural order, spirit shuts down the deck's smoothing, thus giving you time to land thalia + aven mindcensor.

[Jungian Thing]

Using your words would greatly add to my ability to answer poorly phrased questions.

Assuming you are referring to elves being a poor matchup, this has been opined ad nauseam on these forums, I two fisted test, and speak with elves players.

Regarding beating natural order, spirit shuts down the deck's smoothing, thus giving you time to land thalia + aven mindcensor.

Firstly, I don't think anyone has closed the book on this, it needs to be tested.

Secondly, Elves strategy follows three lines from the opening hand. 1.)NO, GSZ 2.) Glimpse 3.) CBH already in hand (dumb luck). You are right, the card advantage is insane but it often involves multiple spells per turn. Best pre board cards against the strategies list are 1.) Aven Mindscenor, 2.) Canonist, SoL, 3.) Canonist/revoker/Stp not great but what we have. As you can see, it stops only one line that canonist already does really well and canonist assists on the dumb luck line. I like them both and they need to be tested but if it is a choice, I would prefer canonist.

It's all speculation in the end though and given one of my most common MUs is Elves I will play both I just think I will land a canonist first. This also does not consider the broader meta.

[Barbed Blightning]

Using your words would greatly add to my ability to answer poorly phrased questions.

Assuming you are referring to elves being a poor matchup, this has been opined ad nauseam on these forums, I two fisted test, and speak with elves players.

Regarding beating natural order, spirit shuts down the deck's smoothing, thus giving you time to land thalia + aven mindcensor.

To clarify:

Where did you read that 1-0 Spirit is "the consensus"? I have seen no such post, nor them trending towards that conclusion. In what testing I have done--"two fisting" as you describe it--I have the general feeling that Spirit is a sideboard card, like Ethersworn Canonist. There are too many matchups where the card (Spirit) is useless, like Jund, NicFit or the Mirror, to make it worthwhile in the main. Her tax is conditional--requiring an opponent to draw cards--and is honestly best when vialed into play in response to a brainstorm. I think two, with an enlightened tutor, is the proper amount for the sideboard.

My larger point is that Spirit isn't the perfect Elves hoser I (and maybe others) thought it originally to be, hence my "NO/Hoof" comment. Some games, yes, you'll shut off Symbiote/Visionary or Glimpse and they'll be dead long enough for you to charge up a Jitte. Other games you'll cast Spirit, they'll play some mana dudes and tutor up a Hoofie and kill you. There is no perfect solution as of yet to the Elves matchup; that's what makes Elves a DTB.

I also wonder why you'd keep in a Thalia against Elves. I have managed a very rare win or two through her, but she's largely ineffective in games two and three.

[Barook]

dredgemundo is a fellow D&T player on MODO. Here's his latest list:

1 Dust Bowl
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
7 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
2 Cataclysm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
3 Runed Halo
1 Veteran Armorer

Two thing I'd like to discuss about this list: What is your experience with Dust Bowl + Flagstones? I kinda like the single Caverns, considering how blue-heavy the current MODO meta is, but having a 5th Wasteland option doesn't sound too bad either. Makes the deck a bit worse against BMs, though.

What caught my eye is the Runed Halo, though, since he upped the number from 2 to 3. Seems like an interesting option to fight off TNN (which have spread in the online meta like the plague) since its a permanent solution to turn it off while you fly over it. And it could be semi-useful against other decks as well.

[Barbed Blightning]

dredgemundo is a fellow D&T player on MODO. Here's his latest list:

1 Dust Bowl
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
7 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
2 Cataclysm
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
3 Runed Halo
1 Veteran Armorer

Two thing I'd like to discuss about this list: What is your experience with Dust Bowl + Flagstones? I kinda like the single Caverns, considering how blue-heavy the current MODO meta is, but having a 5th Wasteland option doesn't sound too bad either. Makes the deck a bit worse against BMs, though.

What caught my eye is the Runed Halo, though, since he upped the number from 2 to 3. Seems like an interesting option to fight off TNN (which have spread in the online meta like the plague) since its a permanent solution to turn it off while you fly over it. And it could be semi-useful against other decks as well.

I don't know how much I can stress this: Ruined Halo is NOT a solution to the "TNN problem."

It does not have legs. It is godawfully narrow in use and application. It doesn't nullify the decks running TNN. It simply means that you sided out dudes that can attack, or relevant spells.

Dust Bowl is too durdly, Flagstones are OK with Cataclysm, but suck against Blood Moon or a Mindcensor + Wasteland.

On the whole, I dislike the list.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[DavidHernandez]

ROCK LEEEE!!!!!! 'SUP???!!?

I'm in a combo heavy meta and have been thinking of running 2 Spirits main.

EVERYONE: With the cards available to use pre-Spirit and Mufasa release, what are our best choices vs. Merfolk?

Also, we've got a good player here running UWr Miracle Control...who has 1x Back to Basics, 4 Terminus, 4 STP, and 1 Supreme Verdict main. I'm SO TEMPTED to run 2 Gaddock Teeg....!

Any recommendations? I expect to play against both decks tomorrow night.

Dave

[Tempus]

ROCK LEEEE!!!!!! 'SUP???!!?

I'm in a combo heavy meta and have been thinking of running 2 Spirits main.

EVERYONE: With the cards available to use pre-Spirit and Mufasa release, what are our best choices vs. Merfolk?

Also, we've got a good player here running UWr Miracle Control...who has 1x Back to Basics, 4 Terminus, 4 STP, and 1 Supreme Verdict main. I'm SO TEMPTED to run 2 Gaddock Teeg....!

Any recommendations? I expect to play against both decks tomorrow night.

Dave

Merfolk should be doable with MoR and Sword of Fire and Ice. You can also use Thalia + Karakas to fog at least 1 creature.

Against Miracles you can hope to land a Vial and a Revoker on Top. If they can't Miracle in your turn, you're much better off. Supreme Verdict should not be an issue between Wasteland, Port and Thalia... Also try not to commit to much to the board and have creatures ready for when they use Terminus.

[Barook]

How good is Brimaz? It seems more and more people try to fit in two copies. Should I get those copies asap after their release on MODO or can I play the waiting game, hoping that prices are going to drop after the initial onslaught?

Edit: In which match-ups is Cataclysm good, aside from Miracles?

[Barbed Blightning]

How good is Brimaz? It seems more and more people try to fit in two copies. Should I get those copies asap after their release on MODO or can I play the waiting game, hoping that prices are going to drop after the initial onslaught?

Edit: In which match-ups is Cataclysm good, aside from Miracles?

He's nuts. Simply insane. Durable enough against red decks and tribal strategies, relevant enough to pull you ahead on a stalled or unfavourable board and easy to protect because of Karakas. Get some asap

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Barook]

He's nuts. Simply insane. Durable enough against red decks and tribal strategies, relevant enough to pull you ahead on a stalled or unfavourable board and easy to protect because of Karakas. Get some asap

Sounds good. How does he perform against TNN, though? Sure, he can survive combat against a single TNN, but they often have back-up blockers.

What do people cut for him, though? I've really started to like Aven Mindcensor as a 2x.

From what I've gathered from the Salvation thread, Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty underwhelming.

[from Cairo]

Sounds good. How does he perform against TNN, though? Sure, he can survive combat against a single TNN, but they often have back-up blockers.

What do people cut for him, though? I've really started to like Aven Mindcensor as a 2x.

From what I've gathered from the Salvation thread, Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty underwhelming.

My testing list is the 23 Land, 11 Spells and the following Creatures:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Aven Mindcensor

Other lists I've seen have flexed out 2x Aven Mindcensor or the 3rd Flickerwisp and 4th Phyrexian Revoker to accommodate Spirit of the Labyrinth or Mangara of Corondor. In this list I like Aven Mindcensor for being flier 7-8 against True-Name Nemesis. I also like that Aven Mindcensor checks Elves ability to Natural Order or Green Sun's Zenith; in conjunction with Revoker on Heritage Druid and Swords to Plowshares they're ability to go off is limited.

[Barbed Blightning]

Sounds good. How does he perform against TNN, though? Sure, he can survive combat against a single TNN, but they often have back-up blockers.

What do people cut for him, though? I've really started to like Aven Mindcensor as a 2x.

From what I've gathered from the Salvation thread, Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty underwhelming.

I'll probably be playing:


4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
11 Snow-Covered Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Serra Avenger

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 Celestial Flare


The theory being that Serra Avenger and Brimaz have similar roles and abilities (3-power beatsticks that disrupt combat with Vigilance). While I'm softer to Elves, I gain a significant edge against the new Lands brew with 3 Mangara and Jund with Brimaz. I may squeeze in Mindcensors in the board.

I'm actually finding Spirit to be lackluster as well. Maybe I'll appease Rock Lee and go down to one copy in my sideboard!

[SevenInTheQueue]

Decided to hang up my Brainstorms, and will be using this as the starting point for an upcoming SCG event.


4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Serra Avenger
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
3x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3x Flickerwisp
2x Mangara of Corondor

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Cavern of Souls
9x Plains


1x Cursed Totem
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Rest in Peace
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Manriki-Gusari
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege

Getting to this 75 has been somewhat frustrating, as the last time I played DNT was when Mangara was the staple, and before TNN. Comments, questions, concerns, etc.

[Barbed Blightning]

61 cards?

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[from Cairo]

<28 Creatures>
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Serra Avenger
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
3x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3x Flickerwisp
2x Mangara of Corondor
<11 Spells>
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
<23 Land>
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Cavern of Souls
9x Plains

<15 SB>
1x Cursed Totem
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
1x Rest in Peace
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Manriki-Gusari
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege

Getting to this 75 has been somewhat frustrating...

You are at 77...

61 cards?

62

[SevenInTheQueue]

Whoops, meant to exclude Mangara from that list.

[Mr. Froggy]

Can't wait to pick up my Mufasas! From what I gathered he is quite the game changer.

[Barook]

How's Meekstone against Delver/TNN decks? Lost twice today BUG Delver with Double Delver + TNN draws today and that left me kinda salty.

[from Cairo]

How's Meekstone against Delver/TNN decks? Lost twice today BUG Delver with Double Delver + TNN draws today and that left me kinda salty.

It's good as a psuedo removal spell against Delver/TNN decks. I think it's better against UWR Delver and RUG Delver, since they usually only have 1-2 Wear//Tear or Ancient Grudge to address our equipment, Rest in Peace and Meekstone. BUG decks have 4 Abrupt Decay at their disposal so they have more cards that directly deal with Meekstone on the table. They also regularly have Thoughtseize where the above mentioned decks often have STP or Bolt. This again gives them more choices in addressing non-Creature problems.

Another aside to the Meekstone discussion is whether or not Ensnaring Bridge is stronger at accomplishing this defensive role. Meekstone requires less set up and has built in favorable interactions with our 2/x's and Vigilant guys. Ensnaring Bridge requires the controller to float cards in hand to attack profitably, thus managing often deploying only one card a turn - it's upside is that when it works the undercosted Blue 3/x's don't even get one attack and that it splashes hate against Craterhoof Behemoth, Griselbrand, Emrakul and more fringe cards like Knight of the Reliquary and MUD's attackers.

[Barook]

Ensnaring Bridge is alot harder to resolve against Delver decks, though, since you need and potential Daze mana while they can also disrupt your mana. If you add Thalia to the equation, things get ugly.