[Deck] bUrg Tempo

[JosephK]

I'll adress the topic of the manabase and stuff after the podcast record scheduled for today. Be asured, I did not just replace the creatures without any reflection in the manabase

Decay can't handle TNN or fuck over a player trying to resolve a Show&Tell. Goose can't kill nor damage nor block TNN ... I fail to see how that card can "handle" TNN. If your opponent has 2 TNN on the battlefield, I suppose you did not board REB and Golgari Charm ;p

The list is sure slower, but with Reanimator and Loam on the rise, I guess having more DRS MB is a valid counterargument, while the setup with TNN let you just laugh in the face of RIP and DRS which are indeed problems for a setup with Goose+Goofy. With you being likely the first deck to drop TNN and with Bolts for reach, you should win any damage race as long as you keep Equipment off the table with snare+stifle.

I doubt I have to drop any extended essay about how TNN + Liliana dominate fair matchups ;)

This is very interresting thank you.

Concerning the manabase, it is clear that yours is stable (less green) compared to the former one.

Goose can handle TNN in the sense : TNN attacks -> you can attack with Goose for the same amount of damage (providing the opponent doesn't have any other creature -liliana does the same). Double TNN can occur G1 but indeed it's not likely , i was just comparing TNN/Liliana Vs Goose/Decay in that particular case, all other things remaining equal.

TNN + Liliana dominate the fair match ups, certainly but i think it can be argued that Goose/Decay can do the same faster at the cost of Stability.

[Lemnear]

This is very interresting thank you.

Concerning the manabase, it is clear that yours is stable (less green) compared to the former one.

Goose can handle TNN in the sense : TNN attacks -> you can attack with Goose for the same amount of damage (providing the opponent doesn't have any other creature -liliana does the same). Double TNN can occur G1 but indeed it's not likely , i was just comparing TNN/Liliana Vs Goose/Decay in that particular case, all other things remaining equal.

TNN + Liliana dominate the fair match ups, certainly but i think it can be argued that Goose/Decay can do the same faster at the cost of Stability.

It's true that Goose vs. TNN can trade blows like Stallone and Mr. T in Rocky 2, but growing Goose can become a problem at times as you might have noticed yourself in this deck and so I often saw the advantage of being a 1cc drop quickly vanish.

I just hate the moments the game drags into the mid- and lategame at times and you look at worthless 3/3's which can't overcome like any resolved creature in the Format :/

[sawatarix]

@Lemnear and JosephK:

You guys are talking about a deck called "grixis tempo"
Just add dark confidant,cut green entirely and you have it.
However Tnn and some copies of liliana would turn it into a midrangy deck because both cards are clunky and don't consort with daze and stifle.
Kinda similar to uwr delver which is also not a tempodeck due to it's manaintensive creatures and equipments.

German ******** on the other hand is supposed to be the fastest deck with the best cc1 creatures in the format.
There is no other deck that can abuse Stifle and Daze like this one while playing all other reactive spells and creatures at the same time.



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Contract Killer]

So just thought I would share the success of this.
I was playing BURG (similar list to the one in the primer with slightly different sideboard) against Bant yesterday with a friend. It's game 2 and game 1 he didn't see the 2 deathrites or 2 undergrounds and just thought I was playing my regular rug list.
The board state comes to him at 10 me at 18 or something I have a goose out finally he rips TNN plays it passes. After that a lot of draw go including me adding a second goose to the field. Then I top deck Golgari Charm play it bash in for 4 he falls to 6. He ponders plays RIP passes. He goes to 4 I ponder into another Charm pass back. He brainstorms plays verdict I regenerate all my creatures. Swing in put him down to 2 and a bolt to the head for the win hahaha. Charm is so good :D

[sawatarix]

Sounds nice dude:-)

Currently i'm toying around with 2 diabolic edicts for my sideboard instead of submerge
because the meta became more blue-white and the number of tarmogoyfs decreased.
Another idea was phyrexian revoker in the sb to have a permanent hate against all combo decks.
Gonna test it this week and give a feedback on both cards


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[kryllex]

I actually prefer the submerges in sideboard, for TNN and small stuff we got the charms. + Dat face of your enemy when you submerge something in response on a fetch is always priceless :)))

[Contract Killer]

Sounds nice dude:-)

Currently i'm toying around with 2 diabolic edicts for my sideboard instead of submerge
because the meta became more blue-white and the number of tarmogoyfs decreased.
Another idea was phyrexian revoker in the sb to have a permanent hate against all combo decks.
Gonna test it this week and give a feedback on both cards


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

How does Phyrexian Revoker deal with combo decks? I guess it can hit Grizzelbrand and something like Wirewood Symbiote, but that doesn't really do anything impactful. Yeah they can't draw cards, but they still have a 7/7 lifelink creature. It can definitely slow elves down, but it still doesn't cripple them by any means. In addition combo really isn't an issue right? We have one of the best combo match ups period.

[Sasan]

So just thought I would share the success of this.
I was playing BURG (similar list to the one in the primer with slightly different sideboard) against Bant yesterday with a friend. It's game 2 and game 1 he didn't see the 2 deathrites or 2 undergrounds and just thought I was playing my regular rug list.
The board state comes to him at 10 me at 18 or something I have a goose out finally he rips TNN plays it passes. After that a lot of draw go including me adding a second goose to the field. Then I top deck Golgari Charm play it bash in for 4 he falls to 6. He ponders plays RIP passes. He goes to 4 I ponder into another Charm pass back. He brainstorms plays verdict I regenerate all my creatures. Swing in put him down to 2 and a bolt to the head for the win hahaha. Charm is so good :D

Awesome dude.

By the way, the list in the primer was
more powerful for me than Carsten Linden's new list. I have cut one Rough for one piece of
combo hate by the way. Will rework the primer a little for GP Paris.

[arbiter]

How does Phyrexian Revoker deal with combo decks? I guess it can hit Grizzelbrand and something like Wirewood Symbiote, but that doesn't really do anything impactful. Yeah they can't draw cards, but they still have a 7/7 lifelink creature. It can definitely slow elves down, but it still doesn't cripple them by any means. In addition combo really isn't an issue right? We have one of the best combo match ups period.

Revoker also stops LED, Top, Helm and Grindstone regarding combo pieces. Seems like an ok sb card but I think combo is least of our worries :)

[Tormod]

Brought my good friend HeisenbUrg to my local Legacy

4 Delver
3 DRS
3 Goyf
2 TNN
1 Sylvan Library
2 snare
2 pierce
2 Decay
3 Stifle
+ the standard other components

Round 1 vs UWR Delver
Game 1, Opponent mulls to 5 and leads with wasteland, and misses his turn 2 land drop. Turn 2 I have 2 land, 1 DRS, 1 Delver and a Sylvan Library...
Game 2 This one is a battle, the cantrips are on my side. We trade delvers, and remove each others threats. I have a Delver and a Deathrite and opponent plays Stoneforge and searches for sword of fire and ice. I cantrip for answers. Artifact Mutation give me 3 saprolings and opponent has sad face. I beat him to death.
1-0

Round 2 vs Shot in the Dark? (Thopter Sword deck with ensnaring bridge and planewalkers)
Game 1 Snare hits every thopter foundry he cast. I push an aggressive clock and opponent never stablized.
Game 2 Red blast hits every thopter foundry he cast. I never over extend, it seems he digs but never finds anything.
2-0

Round 3 vs Punishing Jund
Game 1 I play mana denial, and cantrip for wastelands until he has no board. My creatures get there
Game 2 I lose, 2 early DRS on the Jund side get too far ahead in the mana race
Game 3 Seems like my opponent kept a controlly hand that didn't get there.
3-0

Round 4 vs Sneak Show
My opponent drops to go home early, but his record will still allow him to prize so its cool.

[Tom]

Has anyone ever thought about running Force of Will in the Sideboard?
You definitely want it within the 75, but do we need it in the MD?

What do you think about replacing it with other instants/sorceries like more snares/pierces or even Gitaxian Probes? Burn would also be a possibility, yet it does not look too attractive to me at the moment…

[sawatarix]

Revoker stops:

Led
Sneak attack
Cavern harpy
Helm of obedience
Grind Stone
Phantasmagorian
Belcher
...




- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[renanprezende]

I played yesterday in the local legacy event, with 25 players, using my bUrg list.

MD:
3 DRS
4 Delver
4 Mongoose
1 Vendilion

4 BS, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 4 Ponder, 4 FoW, 4 Lightning Bolt, 3 Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict

4 Waste, 4 Misty, 3 Scalding Tarn, 2 Volcanic, 2 Tropical, 2 U Sea, 1 Taiga

SB:
1 Jace, 1 LftL, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Artifact Mutation
2 Golgari Charm, 1 Fire Covenant, 2 Pierce
1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Grafdigger's Cage, 2 Submerge

Round 1: Dark Maverick (1-2)
1º - lost to a 7/7 knight + Batterskull
2º - destroyed Batterskull with A. Mutation and won on the following turn
3º - mull to 5 but i managed to hold him, jace did a really good job here, but he won on the turn 5 of the extra turns

Round 2: Goblins (2-0)
1º - he took a mull to 5, and had only a mountain for the first 4 turns of the game, and that was more than enough for me to win
2º - killed his first turn lackey, and put a delver right away, it flipped, and Charm + Covenant + Edict secured the win

Round 3: DragonStompy (2-1)
1º - didn't know what he was on, and got totally crushed by keeping a low counterspell hand
2º - delver on turn 1, flipped on turn 2 and i had more than enough counters to hold him
3º - same as game 2

Round 4: Elves (2-1)
1º - i got a mulligan to 5, and he kept a great hand, that killed me on turn 4 with Craterhoof + 4 elves
2º - fire covenant paying 7 life ripped his elves, and 2 mongoose + 1 vendilion finished the game
3º - he took a mull to 4, and i took to 6. I didn't had a great hand, with Charm and Abrupt, but with only a volcanic island as a land, but there were a BS so i took the hand. i eventully found a fetch, that put deathrite shaman on the table, and Charm + Covenant closed the game for me

Went 3-1 with a really close lost, so i was very happy with the results

Toughts:
Jace is awsome on the SB.
I really want Snapcaster Mage on the deck to double use any of the SB spells, they are just to good
Vendilion MD is good but not great, maybe i'll cut it to the SB and put the Snap on its place
Edict MD is good, better than Dismember i guess.

Anyway, it was the first time playing in a 20+ player event with bUrg, and the deck went pretty well, i got very satisfied with it.
Can't wait to make some changes and play with it again!!

[sawatarix]

Jace is still great,having a late game bomb against midrange but also controldecks like uw miracle and bug control is great and gives us the opportunity to win games in the very late game.

The same for all other planeswalker,Garruk R,Ral Zarek and Ashiok


By the way,if you wanna see how to loose against death&texas i would recommend this video.
It's me playing my german ******** in the semifinals against the white boys 2 weeks ago during a gpt.

http://youtu.be/26afyeYNN9w


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Tom]

Okay... I guess you don't feel like it is a good idea to move the forces to the sideboard

[JosephK]

Hello !

I'd like to ask you some question concerning the tempo match ups.

First, this is my MD threats package :

1 TNN / 1 Clique - I have good reasons for both...-
3 Deathrite
3 Mongoose
4 Delver

I play 4 Stifle, 2 Decays and the usual stuff.

In my opinion, I have a much better early-game than most of the other tempo decks, this is due to the combination of DRS (a very good turn 2 if played T1) and Bolt (T1 Removal). No other tempo deck plays DRS and a T1 removal. So I thought that my main goal against opposing tempo decks should be Mana Denial first -to the highest point. Are you ok with this ?
Let's take one of the most played tempo deck as an example : BUG Delver. Their threats are :

4 DRS
4 Delver
4 Tarmogoyf
3 TNN/Tombstalker

A lot more than I have. So I thought : if I don't mana denial them early, or take a big advantage, I have high chances to loose. How could I hope to win an attrition game vs BUG, even post-sideboard ? I have less threats and they are not as strong as Tarmogoyf, I can't counter Abrupt Decay (I once submerged my own threat to counter decay ^^). If the game goes late, I can't race. Then why take Stifle out Sasan ? (please answer this question, I just want to understand your gameplan Vs BUG :) ! )

I am aware that they play DRS. Is it a good enough reason to take stifle out ? I played recently against a BUG player that told me that he usually takes his counterspells out for G2/3 to bring in removals (submerge, disfigure..). If he does that, and I don't mana denial him, I think I have no chances to win the game.
Concerning the sideboard, Thrun is a good card for the late game but is this enough to "skip" the mana denial plan ?

Please help me ! :) I need your experience.

[Tormod]

BUG is a tough match up.

Their plan is overwhelm with Tarmogoyf and then go over the top with Tombstalker. Its one of the main reasons I run 3 Tarmogoyf. You don't want to be outclassed on size in a tempo match up.

To me the match is similar to that of Jund where whoever controls the first deathrite shaman has advantage. My plan against BUG is to do as much damage as possible, use my goyfs as walls, push damage through with delver and truename, collect bolts and use shaman to burn them out for the remaining 6-10 life.

RE: Thrun

This was discussed some pages back, and the idea from that discussion is that True Name Nemesis is easier on the mana and likely the better card.

RE: Submerge

I haven't run any copies in months. Its mostly UWR decks, and the meta has been hostile to elves.

[Ghost588]

Hello again!

So I finally got a chance to sleeve this deck up and give it a try.

My list was
4 DRS
4 Delver
2 Goyf
2 TNN

2 pierce
2 snare
2 Decay

and the rest was all stock.

Eventually I dropped the TNN and one DRS in place of 3 Geese but I wasn't really impressed with them as much as I thought.

On a happy note, this deck was amazing to play. Tempo decks like RUG have never interested me because late game I always felt like they fizzle. With thanks to DRS who won so many games on his own, I felt I could close out most grindy games. For the sake of just testing which version of the deck I liked we didn't do SB during testing.

My results were:

Burn 4:0
Miracles 2:0
Sneak Show 2:1
UWR Blade with Young Pyro 2:1
Elves 2:2
Reanimator 2:2

I loved playing this deck and I cannot wait to get decent at it an comfortable with it enough to bring it to a tournament. As I stated prior I had some problems figuring out the correct build I want. I love the decay but, only cast it once when it really mattered. The geese were good when they were good but, I always wanted more from them. The primer mentions that you should have at least 3-4 Shroud creatures and I know only having 2 TNN doesn't really fit. I was also debating 3 or 4 DRS along with the pierce/snare split or just 3 snares and 1 more removal lke Dismember. I know it mostly about play style, preference, and meta. I was also having a difficult time on what to fetch for when and what spell was best to play as this is my first time ever playing tempo.

I really love this deck and the person I tested against and everyone who watched was amazed at its ability and what it could pull off. I should be trsting a little more tomorrow I hope and I'll be sure to fire away with questions that I know I'll have :)

[JosephK]

BUG is a tough match up.

Their plan is overwhelm with Tarmogoyf and then go over the top with Tombstalker. Its one of the main reasons I run 3 Tarmogoyf. You don't want to be outclassed on size in a tempo match up.

To me the match is similar to that of Jund where whoever controls the first deathrite shaman has advantage. My plan against BUG is to do as much damage as possible, use my goyfs as walls, push damage through with delver and truename, collect bolts and use shaman to burn them out for the remaining 6-10 life.

RE: Thrun

This was discussed some pages back, and the idea from that discussion is that True Name Nemesis is easier on the mana and likely the better card.

RE: Submerge

I haven't run any copies in months. Its mostly UWR decks, and the meta has been hostile to elves.

Thank you so much for your answer. This helps a lot.

So, if I follow your gameplan, you take Stifle out vs BuG, right ?

I feel like I need to change my threats package or at least run Tarmogoyfs in my SB (to be able to follow your gameplan, which seems to be the only viable one). Concerning Submerge, it can help vs Tombstalker and I think that BuG will be well represented in the GP (I will be there ! :) ).

Concerning Thrun, I didńt test it myself but I read different opinions on this forum. So I don't really know (I have 2 trops 1 Taiga MD). The problem with TNN is Golgari Charm I guess (played in Jund and BUG).

[sawatarix]

Well there are different ways to beat any kind of decks.
Against team america i'm used to play this route:

On the play.
If your ok the play against team america keep all of your stifles and 3 dazes in as well as at least 2 force of wills.
It's very easy to screw team america because they first fetch for usea and then for bayou.
Just one wasteland can take out blue which shuts down all his cantrips etc.

On the draw things look a bit different.
I personally keep in all force of wills and cut all stifles and some dazes,they both are pretty bad if your opponent starts with deathrite shaman.
The key is to handle all big creatures,tarmogoyf and tombstalker by using force of will,abrupt decay,dismember,diabolic edict and submerge.
The game will go into a fair fight (unlike the games above)
So try to trump their dudes.
Boarding in more expensive and powerful threads like Thrun,Ashiok,Tnn and jace is also a great way to dominate the board.
Don't throw your only 1 removal on his first thread because it's targettable.
Use your removal wisely.

I hope it helps a bit :-)



- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -