I'm planning to test a build with Phantasmal Images with this creature suite (4 Nimble, 4 Delver, 3 Tarmogoyf, and 2 Images). The theory behind this is we can copy opposing TNNs to finish them off. The card can also copy Mongeese and Delvers, and can be pitched to force. The card can be dead if we only have the Image as a lone creature in hand or if there's nothing worthwile to copy.
Also, the card can be dead if there's only one creature out and they kill it in response to spell. This is possible esp. in the early stages of game, when the Image is the most powerful (since turn6+ you may easily play your own TNN). Otoh, in most matchups there will always be something to copy and a two-mana fliped Delver isn't bad.Originally Posted by cheerios
Let us know how this experiment went!
image seems like a good way to combat nemesis while having all sorts of other neat targets, it will take some getting used to so you don't get blown out by a stray STP but it seems fairly good in theory.
Remember to copy insectile aberration, not delver. Cloned delvers don't flip.
That makes sense I might look at trying to find room for a third REB in my side. How do you go about siding for the elves match up? I've found two main lines of thought on it which are usually -4 daze, -2x / +3 submerge, +2 rough, +grafdigger's cage or -4 goose, -2x. I understand both there are many times against elves when they just play around daze all the time and it's dead, but lowering threats also seems bad. On the other hand I've had games where I force their GSZ (dryad arbor) waste a bayou and they can't afford to play around daze. The other issue is them just getting Wirewood Symbiote + elf and goose/goyf never get through. Do you think Life From the Loam doesn't do enough to require a sideboard spot?
Pith the insect.
Life from the Loam is right on the cusp. If you expect a lot of tempo mirror, it's a good card, but it's not going to do anything against combo, Nic Fit, Maverick, Miracles, etc. Deathrite Shaman makes Life from the Loam worse, as DRS eats the lands that you would return or the LftL.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
DRS eats the Loam so he is kill on sight if you are on the Loam plan.
I would not leave home without 1 Loam in my Sb.
It's just insane in the mirror,uwr delver,all types of lands decks, team america (kill shaman first then loamlock)
I'm very interested in you opinions about the metagame in gp paris next week.
What do you guys think?
( I personally expect a lot of Midrange Stoneblade Decks and a shitload on combodecks that try to ignore tnn which is good for us because we are also called comboslayer )
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
I think I might be upping the number of Spell Snares and cutting on Pierces.
Is there a way to squeeze in Lavamancers? Or is there only space for them in the SB?
spell pierce should be a 4 of in this deck.
fire//ice is the best 5th burn spell
spell snare is too narrow
the sideboard needs to be well rounded
misty rainforest and scalding tarn should be polluted delta and wooded foothills
goyf is your best creature play all 4
You are just saying things, with no arguement behind them.
Fire//ice is not necessarily the next best burn spell, forked bolt is a card that gives you a better game 1 against elves maverick and death and taxes.
Spell snare fixes problems that the deck has against goyf and stoneforge by beating them on the stack it's a very solid choice.
The side boarded being well rounded is not saying much at all.
And I agree wooded foothills is the best fetch for the deck the rest is debatable
I'm running three snares and they're really good right now:
UWR Delver: 4x stoneforge, 2-3x RIP sideboard, Jitte (all of these are really bad for us if they hit the table)
Stoneblade: 4x Stoneforge, 1-3x Snapcaster, Jitte,
Jund, RUG, BUG: GOYF very important to not let him hit and is relevant in all these match ups
Jund: GOYF 4x hymn to tourach, 4x Bob, 4x P-Fire (buys us a bit of time to try and find a waste), Loam, library, ooze
BUG: GOYF, 2-4x Strix, 2-3x Hymn
Elves: 4x GSZ (1g: any elf), 4x Visionary (The sheer card draw engine him + Symbiote makes is enough to warrant an immediate counter)
Storm: 4x Infernal tutor, 4x burning wish
D&T: 4x Thalia, 4x Stoneforge, 4x Revoker, Jitte, Celestial Flare
Miracles: 3x Counterbalance, 3x RIP, Energy Field, Counterspell
Lands: 4x Loam (I know snare doesn't answer it, but making lands blank on Loam multiple turns in a row is all you need sometimes)
Snare has so much value against all those decks going from most played at the top to least at the bottom. Anybody who says snare is too narrow should rethink that as it's especially good right now with all the stoneforge + TNN decks going around.
EDIT: the only thing snare blanks against for the most part (not including fringe decks) is Show and Tell. Even then we have such a good sideboard combo match up we shouldn't worry about it mainboard. What we should do is strengthen our worse midrange/control match ups and run snare
As for the Lavamancers not really. I mean RUG has traditionaly 6 flex spots (7 if you shave 1 goyf) and you don't really want to go above 12 creatures. Lavamancer isn't good enough to warrant cutting any off the main creatures. Most of our other tools for those flex spots spell pierce, snare, fire/ice, forked bolt, etc are better and more flexible.
"the only thing snare blanks against for the most part (not including fringe decks) is Show and Tell. Even then we have such a good sideboard combo match up we shouldn't worry about it mainboard. What we should do is strengthen our worse midrange/control match ups and run snare"
snare also blanks against:
lightning bolt
swords to plowshares
liliana of the veil
show and tell
sneak attack
jace the mind sculptor
pyroblast/red elemental blast
true-name nemesis
deathrite shaman
dream halls
cunning wish
ponder
brainstorm
batterskull
terminus
sensei's divining top
spell pierce
force of will
natural order
glimpse of nature
green sun's zenith
engineered explosives
i'm sure the list can go on and on. so i believe the list of cards that spell pierce is good against, is larger and more important than the list of cards that spell snare is good against. therefore, i think it is better to have more spell pierces than spell snares. think about it, i mean these delver decks are all running like 28 - 30 instants and sorceries so why would you not wanna be maxed out on spell pierces? play the full 4 pierce, and then sideboard effectively against goyf and stoneforge mystic.
also, goyf should not have to be explained why you should play all 4. especially after i just said, 'he is your best creature'
also, if you don't know why you should be playing wooded foothills and polluted delta as your fetches, then you obviously don't know how to play with RUG Delver.
Fire//Ice also needs no explanation. instant speed, high utility, and it's blue. if worthless in a matchup, (which it almost never is), you cycle it for another card, putting you higher on cards than your delver competitors.
as for what it means to have a well rounded sideboard, i am currently running:
1 ancient grudge
1 grafdigger's cage
1 flusterstorm
1 krosan grip
1 pithing needle
2 pyroblast
3 rough//tumble
1 scavenging ooze
2 submerge
1 sulfur elemental
1 vendilion clique
My point was to not show every card in the format the Snare hits. My point was to show that it's good in the current meta against almost all the decks. Sure pierce has more flexibility that is non negotiable, but it's a soft counter. In addition Snare is used for a completely different purpose to hammer down on the two drops that can ruin our deck. Snare deals with Rest in peace, Stoneforge, opposing goyfs, bobs, etc. Pierce deals with mainly protecting our threats from removal and making the combo match ups better which we don't need.
Another thing to point out is currently (see the link below) 50% of the meta is running either Stoneforge Mystic or Tarmogoyf. Why should there be an argument over running a hard counter for both of those cards if they make up that much of the meta?
http://mtgtop8.com/topcards
spell pierce is a hard counter 99% of the time.
but if you're dead set on running spell snare, then running a 3 spell pierce/2 spell snare split would be acceptable.
No, it's not, it doesn't stop neither Goyf nor SFM. Also, in your list of Spell Pierce targets you got DRS and TNN.
the list is not 'here is all the stuff that spell pierce counters' it's a list that shows the popular cards you have to stop in the format. okay? now that that is clear....
spell snare hits hymn (which people are playing thoughtseize now) tarmogoyf, and stoneforge mystic. okay...now are u saying that without spell snare you can't beat these cards? the point of my last post was to show that spell pierce has many more uses and cards it can stop than what spell snare does.
let's look at some more obscure cards that spell snare can stop:
elvish visionary (cute but probably not that big a deal if you stop it
umezawa's jitte (jitte doesn't really do much against your creatures in play other than delver)
rough//tumble (now that is probably a card worth having a spell snare for if you are playing the mirror)
fire//ice (same thing as above)
burning wish (TES and Belcher are terrible decks. ANT is better)
cranial plating (could be lifesaving game 1 against affinity but who plays that deck?)
thalia (who cares? we have rough//tumble and sulfur elemental. white decks die to us)
any 2 mana creature in goblins or merfolk (they probably have aether vial or cavern of souls)
so yes, the earlier list shows some cards that spell pierce can'r stop, but spell snare can't stop them either. you should be worried about more than just stoneforge mystic and tarmogoyf. true name nemesis is enemy number 1 that we have to keep off the table. people also underestimate the value of spell piercing brainstorms and ponders as well. another common mistake people will make.
again main point is:
running only 2 spell pierce is bad. you need to be playing 3 or 4 of. preferably 4 of. it stops way more important cards in this format than spell snare does. play more spell pierce. Spell pierce is a 4 of in U/W/R Delver. Have you ever wondered why that is? Because it is the best counterspell in the format. Yes, way better than Force of Will currently. It stops just about every single card that you would also consider countering with Force of Will, but it does it for 1 mana. It helps counter important cards in every stage of the game, and most of the time, they will not have 2 mana to pay for it. have you forgotten that we also run wasteland and stifle to disrupt their mana base? it makes spell pierce all the more stronger.
Spell Pierce is not even close to a hard counter. Also your list of things Spell Snare doesn't counter is unfair seeing as though you are putting things on the list Spell Perce cannot hit either.
No one is arguing that, in a vacuum, Snare is better than Pierce. However, it is undeniable that in this meta Snare is worthy of being main decked.
I am beginning to agree with you on that statement. see the reason i make such a hard argument for spell pierce over spell snare, is to hear what the reasons are that people choose to run certain cards and how strong that argument is to change certain aspects of an already tight decklist.
i still believe that spell pierce is the better counterspell. but i am starting to agree as well that spell snare should be run as a 2 of in the main alongside 3 spell pierce, 5 burn spells (i'm choosing to go with fire//ice) and 4 of everything else. counterarguments are very important when deciding whether or not to run something just because you read it online. or because someone somewhere did well with the deck having it in their decklist. because you gotta think, just because guy A runs a few cards different than guy B, the part you don't get to research is how many games those few cards made any difference in their deck winning or losing. so the argument for why put card *blank* into *blank* deck needs to be researched, debated, and examined before adding or subtracting X cards from your decklist.
because you never know what the story is behind certain cards sometimes. look at the guy who played RUG delver with 2 Tarmogoyf and 2 Vendilion Clique. Do we know for sure these were the changes he thought was necessary for the deck? Do you think it was due to long discussions and many hours of playtesting that he felt that cutting 2 Tarmogoyf for 2 Vendilion Clique was the better way to go? or is it more likely that it had more to do with card availability? either he doesn't own 4 himself, or within his playgroup only 2 Tarmogoyf were available and he had to come up with something else to throw in. (i personally would have thrown in scavenging ooze if i didn't have all 4 goyfs but that's just me.) perhaps somebody was supposed to bring him cards or the deck and they forgot it so he had to build off of what he had. perhaps he didn't really care about winning but ended up doing it anyway.
i say this because i do not think every deck everywhere that has made top 8 is perfect. there are too many X factors as to why certain cards are played in any given decklist. so when considering to make changes it's important to think about all the reasons someone may or may not run said cards. i know, because this has happened to me and people i know before. Having to build a janky Junk list because my friend forgot Merfolk at home and doing terrible with it (except winning a box of New Phyrexia in a side event!) or how a friend got 3rd place with Petting Zoo. He was only running 2 Loam Lions, not 4. Instead he ran 2 Qasali Pridemage. The reason? Because he didn't own any Loam Lions, no one had them for him to borrow, and Starcity only had 2 in their case. The 2 he played. So he said "hmm...i'll just run qasali instead". And he got 3rd.
X factors......the reasons why or why not we play certain cards. More than just "oh look, some guy played them and did well".
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