All B/R update speculation.

[Zombie]

Are you talking about that RUG Delver vs DnT?

Wasn't RUG, but yes. Shrout's game.

[apple713]

When unbanning cards, I don't know why we should start with "cards that help Storm decks only". Leaving aside the issue that the banned draw7s are just broken.

Can we just unban Earthcraft and Mind Twist already.

those are long overdue for unbans. I'd love to see my beta mind twist spike in price :) it won't ever see play tho.

[Lord Seth]

And another SCG broadcast where what could have been a really interesting game instead made me want to drive a rusty nail in my eye.

Could you clarify? I was not watching.

[Shawon]

Could you clarify? I was not watching.

D&T vs. Esper both had Equipment, and Andrew Shrout (playing D&T) got SoFI online, but it still didn't matter, because TNN + equipped Batterskull >>>

[HSCK]

So first Open of February:

8 different decks

UWR
Team America
Elves
ANT
Lands
Sneak 'n' Show
RUG Delver
Shardless BUG

[JPoJohnson]

So first Open of February:

8 different decks

UWR
Team America
Elves
ANT
Lands
Sneak 'n' Show
RUG Delver
Shardless BUG

Yeah, I really like the split up. It looks fantastic (:

[HSCK]

Also, just 3 TNN decks in the entire top 32, and no TNN centric decks in the top 16.

[Megadeus]

Lands is Tyrio on here.

[ESG]

Also, just 3 TNN decks in the entire top 32, and no TNN centric decks in the top 16.

Actually, seven decks in the Top 32 are running True-Name Nemesis, and two of these decks made Top 8, despite a larger-than-normal turnout of Miracles. The seven decks were:

Patriot (Robinson)
BUG Delver (Tompkins)
Patriot (Majors)
Shardless BUG (Briggs)
Deathblade (Prost)
Merfolk (Aiken)
Deathblade (Bertoncini)

Also, it should be noted that a couple decks that don't usually run TNN are playing them here: one of the Shardless BUG decks and one of the BUG Delver decks.

[testing32]

This top 32 looks to me like an excellent example of the meta adjusting to TNN (still very blue but what else is new). You have to give these things time and be patient with it. Standard doesn't usually get solved until 2 months after a new set comes out and legacy takes longer than that (less tournaments, more variables, etc). Some examples of this are are still getting new lands builds showing up and the changing stoneblade configurations.

I'm really looking forward to the GP Paris coverage and results this weekend. Should be fun.

Edit - the one unfortunate thing is the cost of tabernacle limiting the growth of these lands deck. I would like to play around with it but I'm not about to drop 1.2k on 2 non-transferable cards.

[Erdvermampfa]

You also have to keep in mind that TNN's presence is partly reduced by those who abstain from it because they fear that it might get banned in the near future.

[Arsenal]

Um... that Top 8 is 75% running TNN or not caring about TNN at all. RUG Delver and Shardless BUG are the only two decks not on the "run TNN or don't care about TNN at all" plan.

[testing32]

Um... that Top 8 is 75% running TNN or not caring about TNN at all. RUG Delver and Shardless BUG are the only two decks not on the "run TNN or don't care about TNN at all" plan.

It influences the meta game no doubt about it. Some decks are better and some decks aren't as competative anymore because of TNN. But, I'm not convinced that it's unhealthy. I personally like stoneblade and BUG delver better than shardless and Jund.

Lots of cards that have a large impact on the meta need to be accounted for like: SFM, Show and Tell and Delver.

[DragoFireheart]

Um... that Top 8 is 75% running TNN or not caring about TNN at all. RUG Delver and Shardless BUG are the only two decks not on the "run TNN or don't care about TNN at all" plan.

Shardless can use Lilly and all kinds of sac/-x-x removal things while also gaining card advantage. Does not surprise me that it's still around in some form.

Has RUGs numbers been going down?

[Arsenal]

It influences the meta game no doubt about it. Some decks are better and some decks aren't competative anymore because of TNN. But, I'm not convinced that it's unhealthy. I personally like stoneblade and BUG delver better than shardless and Jund.

Lots of cards that have a large impact on the meta need to be accounted for like: SFM, Show and Tell and Delver.

But pre-TNN, the meta certainly wasn't "play SFM, play a deck that doesn't care about SFM at all, or stay home". In fact, my data is showing signs that the meta was more diverse pre-TNN. From Jan-Oct 2013, Jund was basically the king of Legacy (didn't play SFM, very much cared about it), Maverick was a major player (many lists didn't play SFM, very much cared about it), RUG Delver was tops (didn't play SFM, very much cared about it), we only had 1 flavor of Island-SFM at any given time in the Top 10 instead of the 3 flavors we currently have, etc.

_______________________________________________________________

Drago -

Yes, I have to do the some final data collecting and analysis (choosing to examine Top 15 instead of just Top 10), but just from what I can observe off the initial adjusted data, RUG Delver was the #1 (maybe #2) deck from Jan-Oct 2013. I'm not sure what it currently is, but I suspect it's seen a pronounced downward trend since November 1st, 2013.

[catmint]

The meta was super diverse before TNN - but in all honesty - Canadian was the best deck.

I thought (still think) TNN hurts the meta / legacy, but so far things really don't point into any direction and tcdecks as well as the most recent scg show that things are still all over the place and very diverse. I suggest to still wait and see how things go before starting the discussion all over again.

[HSCK]

But pre-TNN, the meta certainly wasn't "play SFM, play a deck that doesn't care about SFM at all, or stay home". In fact, my data is showing signs that the meta was more diverse pre-TNN. From Jan-Oct 2013, Jund was basically the king of Legacy (didn't play SFM, very much cared about it), Maverick was a major player (many lists didn't play SFM, very much cared about it), RUG Delver was tops (didn't play SFM, very much cared about it), we only had 1 flavor of Island-SFM at any given time in the Top 10 instead of the 3 flavors we currently have, etc.

_______________________________________________________________

Drago -

Yes, I have to do the some final data collecting and analysis (choosing to examine Top 15 instead of just Top 10), but just from what I can observe off the initial adjusted data, RUG Delver was the #1 (maybe #2) deck from Jan-Oct 2013. I'm not sure what it currently is, but I suspect it's seen a pronounced downward trend since November 1st, 2013.

So what exactly is the top 8 supposed to have? Are you saying the format's at a point where it cares more about combo or evasive creatures than before?

[Arsenal]

So what exactly is the top 8 supposed to have?

Not 75% "play with Card X or play a deck that doesn't care about Card X at all". Also, I dislike using 1 Top 8 or 1 month as evidence of anything, that's why I strongly believe we need to talk in terms of Jan-Oct 2013 vs. Nov 2013-current.

[HSCK]

Well then what will the determinant be? Does a certain deck need to be there to validate health? Is it a number? Is it 15 tier decks vs. 11? Or just an abstract point?

[Arsenal]

Well then what will the determinant be? Does a certain deck need to be there to validate health? Is it a number? Is it 15 tier decks vs. 11? Or just an abstract point?

Strategies. Color representation would be nice too (as a UW Stoneblade player, even I'm sick of all of the Islands out there), but primarily strategies. testing32 claimed that SFM is no different than TNN in that both are powerful cards the opponent needs to gameplan for. While I agree that SFM is a powerful card, I do not agree that opponents needed to gameplan for it from Jan-Oct 2013. As I pointed out, many decks that didn't run SFM, yet very much cared about it, thrived during that time period as there was no format warping card to act as the boogeyman. Many called for Show and Tell to be banned then (and even now), but the data just doesn't support it warping the meta from Jan-Oct 2013 as, again, there were many decks that thrived during that stretch that didn't run Show and Tell, yet cared very much about it.

This is not the case with TNN. To be successful, you need to run TNN or not care about it. As a result of this, you've seen Jund, Maverick, RUG Delver all slide significantly downwards (some still relevant, some completely irrelevant now). Now if there were similar decks taking those places, then that's fine, because we'd essentially be talking about an even exchange. However, this is not the case as decks running TNN or decks not caring about TNN at all have filled those vacancies, resulting in format diversity being reduced. You do not see non-TNN, non-don't care about TNN decks thriving in this meta, you see them sliding downward and being replaced by TNN (resurrection of Blade Control and DeathBlade) and decks that don't care about TNN (combo, Lands?).