All B/R update speculation.

[Barook]

I agree. Delver is a bigger culprit than TNN.

who the fuck came up with the idea of having a U for a 3/2 flying

Delver definitely caused a surge in blue decks, with S&T fodder (Griselbrand, Omnitell) and ultimatively TNN feeding blue further.

I consider double Delver draws on the play backed up with (free) counter back-up (and mana disruption) to be nigh unbeatable for most decks.

[Scott]

Fucking Wizards of the Coast, forgetting how to design cards, being greedy Limited fistpumpers and powercreeped chase rare planters, scoffing at intelligent strategic diversity, and repainting the color wheel in shit brown, in which Blue has both old control & library manipulation stuff and new aggro stuff in the format.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I guess banning Brainstorm would turn Legacy into a topdeck-format like modern with less critical decisions to make in each game, which is imo the Main attraction of the format.

I don't think so. Legacy has a lot of depth in card selection and tutoring that Modern lacks. Consider, all of the following are banned in Modern, but not Legacy:

-SDT
-Green Sun's Zenith
-Ponder
-Preordain
-Stoneforge Mystic

That's a lot of powerful, variance reducing goodness exclusive to Legacy. And then look at all of the cards that are pre-Eighth Edition that serve to reduce variance:

-Intuition
-Enlightened Tutor
-Wordly Tutor
-Wishes
-Sylvan Library
-Mirri's Guile
-Personal Tutor
-Merchant Scroll

Reaching even deeper into the card pool, there are plenty of deck/archetype-exclusive pieces (think Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Matron, Gamble, Careful Study, Entomb, etc.) that help to reduce variance. And some (currently) third-tier cantrips like Portent and Predict that might become niche contenders when the top-tier cantrip (Brainstorm) is removed from the format.

The removal of Brainstorm isn't going to turn Legacy, a format with a wide swath of variance-reducers, into Modern, a supposedly* "topdeck-format".

*I make no claim to knowledge of Modern because my only interaction with it is playing with jank-piles in a couple small tournaments.

I'm convinced that the diversity would suffer even more in Legacy if you ban a card which is much more essential for combo than for control

To me, diminishing the power of combo isn't necessarily a bad thing. Too many diverse strains puts a limit on the diversity of "fair" decks; when the threats are so diverse, and the combo decks so consistent (thanks Brainstorm!), trying to fight through a meta filled with them becomes miserable for decks without access to an all-in-one silver bullet...Force of Will. Permanent-based hate is effective, but narrow. What suffices against an engine deck like many Storm builds won't hold up against Show and Tell, Dredge, or other strains that diverge significantly from the "play lotsa spells" gameplan.

Plus, the extirpation of Brainstorm would have a disparate negative impact upon Show and Tell...and I think we can all agree that is a very good thing given how awful that deck is to play against.

[Megadeus]

To be fair, you could instead just ban Show and Derp.

I really don't care whether BS gets banned or not, I am just pointing out that the ubiquity of the card is fairly high and if any other card that wasn't considered a pillar of the format saw this much play, then there would be much discussion. Force of WIll not counting, because we all know that Force is extremely important to the Meta Game Health

[ahg113]

@JZL - +1

Well stated response to reasons the sky wouldn't fall with brainstorm banned.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Actually JZL, you provided the reasons why Brainstorm shouldn't be banned. Why the heck should we ban a card simply because it's arguably THE BEST variance reduction spell in legacy, especially something that is a pillar of the format. Ubiquity alone is not a legitimate reason to ban a card unless it gets to Mental Misstep proportions where literally every deck becomes 56 cards. It has to be producing a very specific and unhealthy effect on the meta. The stagnant state of legacy at the moment has more to do with TNN than brainstorm. Lets say for the sake of argument that they do eventually end up banning brainstorm, what happens after? Ponder probably becomes the best cantrip. But what's to stop them from eventually banning that? And then pre-ordain, and then every other good variance reduction spell, blue and non-blue. At some point legacy would just eventually degenerate into modern where you are forced to operate on pure redundancy and just have to hope you get there without your deck crapping out on you because what little card selection and/or card draw that is available sucks. Why set such a dangerous precedent for the last format where you are able to play four brainstorm? What needs to happen is the banning of TNN so that we have can have legacy's great non-blue decks be able to prey on the fair blue decks again.

EDIT: Also, Force of Will, the glue that keeps legacy together, gets worse if brainstorm ever gets banned.

[Barook]

Ubiquity alone is not a legitimate reason to ban a card unless it gets to Mental Misstep proportions where literally every deck becomes 56 cards.

87,5% of the topdecks is dangerously close to "every deck runs Brainstorm" (you will never reach a true 100%), especially when the last deck of the Top 8 is the most anti-blue deck in the format which runs a bunch of Blasts MD.

And Ponder isn't even close to the level of Brainstorm. It's sorcery speed, only draws 1 instead of 3 new cards, can't hide cards from discard and doesn't enable Delver, Miracles and Cascade.

Sure, FoW gets a bit worse with Brainstorm gone, but discard gets way better.

I still think the first step should be the removal of TNN since it's pushing out non-blue non-combo decks out of the format, hence leading to this warped Anti-TNN meta.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

As a "card selection" spell, Ponder is more powerful than Brainstorm even with a shuffle effect, and far more powerful when you don't have a fetch or something else.

What Brainstorm is, and what makes it much more powerful and ubiquitous than Ponder, is a card replacement spell, turning dead or weak cards into stronger ones. It is a de facto second, in-game mulligan, only without the Paris penalty.


And yes, Brainstorm is far better for combo than it is for other decks; not only do combo decks have more generally dead cards (duplicate Sneak Attacks or Emrakuls, too many Infernal Tutors, etc.,) but Brainstorm is the most effective answer to discard, which otherwise would be more powerful against combo in particular.

There's no reasonable doubt that if Brainstorm were to be banned, combo would lose relative strength in the meta.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ubiquity alone is not a legitimate reason to ban a card unless it gets to Mental Misstep proportions where literally every deck becomes 56 cards.

Mental Misstep only had about a 66% field penetration of top 8s when it was banned.

[Looooooooo]

The question that has to be asked is: Does the presence of BS in the legacy format attract more players than the players it turns away?
B/R list is a mean to maintain a format enjoyable for the players, that's it.
(btw imho seeing the popularity of legacy tournament the answer is yes)

- L

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've played this particular format since 2001, maybe before that even; I was quite young. I loved it, still do. I've been playing brainstorm just as long. I love the card and as I've said before, it's only as good as the cards being played beside it. Control loses basically as much as combo. I think banning brainstorm would neuter the format, like you have been showing (87.5%). This format's power isn't derived from its large selection of auto-include 1-ofs so powerful they can eschew and sometimes even completely forego land drops and other semi-essential functions of the game, but rather that of the power of multiples. Brainstorm only continues that line of thought, from pseudo-tutoring an answer to a certain situation to becoming the actual answer to that situation (against discard). Without it, I feel the game becomes...artsy poker. A collectible version of Texas Hold'em.

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[nedleeds]

The question that has to be asked is: Does the presence of BS in the legacy format attract more players than the players it turns away?
B/R list is a mean to maintain a format enjoyable for the players, that's it.
(btw imho seeing the popularity of legacy tournament the answer is yes)

- L

WTF are you talking about? No *new* eternal player is moving to legacy because he's heard of this magical card Brainstorm. What an absurd thought.

Dual lands and non rotating card pool attract players to legacy. A player can "buy a deck" and expect "that deck" to be legal for years. Having seen hundreds of players come and go over nearly 20 years not one has ever gotten into a format for one card. If you are on the "I'd quit" train then you weren't really interested in playing the format anyway. The amount of new initiates to legacy who start playing because of Brainstorm is non-existent. A new player will hardly even understand the interaction and tension between a card like brainstorm and the various shuffle effects that make it insane (fetches, SFM, ponder, etc.).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

1.) WTF are you talking about? No *new* eternal player is moving to legacy because he's heard of this magical card Brainstorm. What an absurd thought.

[...]

2.) A new player will hardly even understand the interaction and tension between a card like brainstorm and the various shuffle effects that make it insane (fetches, SFM, ponder, etc.).

1.) Bull. Brainstorm is a $2.00 Ancestral, especially in Legacy. I'd say with almost 90% of the competitive metagame playing it, it's the premier legacy card. This is the only format you can play 4 in. That's a big incentive in my opinion

2.) What? You would have to be a complete fucking moron to miss the obvious interaction of brainstorm+shuffle. This point has nothing to do with being a new player, it has to do with incompetency.

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[Nielsie]

Lets say for the sake of argument that they do eventually end up banning brainstorm, what happens after? Ponder probably becomes the best cantrip. But what's to stop them from eventually banning that? And then pre-ordain, and then every other good variance reduction spell, blue and non-blue. At some point legacy would just eventually degenerate into modern where you are forced to operate on pure redundancy and just have to hope you get there without your deck crapping out on you because what little card selection and/or card draw that is available sucks. Why set such a dangerous precedent for the last format where you are able to play four brainstorm?

This is funny because according to this logic we need to unban Ancestrall Recall...

I don't know, something should be done in the next banlist update. Ban BS or ban TNN. One or the other should go. Personally, I guess the safest ban would be TNN. I am not that convinced that banning BS would re-introduce non-blue fair strategies because TNN is what keeps them out of the format at the moment, not BS. The blue decks would just play more Ponder and Preordain, all the X/1 - hate would stay in decks and TNN + Jitte would still decimate fair strategies. Banning TNN will decrease the number of BS again anyway.

On the other hand, banning BS would be a tool less for all the cheaters out there, but hey, shouldn't we ban Explore too than?? ;)

[btm10]

This is funny because according to this logic we need to unban Ancestrall Recall...

I don't know, something should be done in the next banlist update. Ban BS or ban TNN. One or the other should go. Personally, I guess the safest ban would be TNN. I am not that convinced that banning BS would re-introduce non-blue fair strategies because TNN is what keeps them out of the format at the moment, not BS. The blue decks would just play more Ponder and Preordain, all the X/1 - hate would stay in decks and TNN + Jitte would still decimate fair strategies. Banning TNN will decrease the number of BS again anyway.

On the other hand, banning BS would be a tool less for all the cheaters out there, but hey, shouldn't we ban Explore too than?? ;)

Or we could just unban something else that was "too good" earlier and see what happens. If everyone is terrified of unbanned Survival as they say while they're simultaneously decrying the existence of Show and Tell and TNN, then why not let all of them run free and see where the meta lands? If you're concerned about Brainstorm, there's a currently-banned, 1-mana counterspell that any deck can run. It seems like most of the whining in this thread is because people can't play bad aggro decks, Pox, and Enchantress, even if they're currently playing something else.

[menace13]

Dual lands and non rotating card pool attract players to legacy..).

Sort of. Duals attracted me to the eternal formats, but brainstorm is what makes me want to play blue decks.

[Arsenal]

It seems like most of the whining in this thread is because people can't play bad aggro decks, Pox, and Enchantress, even if they're currently playing something else.

Then you obviously haven't been reading this thread at all. And even if it was true, is having more competitive non-blue decks able to sit with the big boys something we should actively try to suppress? Why should everything be blue-based?

[Zombie]

Hammer TNN, SnT, Leyline of Sanctity. Imagine how good the format will become.

[Arsenal]

Hammer TNN, SnT, Leyline of Sanctity. Imagine how good the format will become.

Leyline... wha?

[PirateKing]

WTF are you talking about? No *new* eternal player is moving to legacy because he's heard of this magical card Brainstorm. What an absurd thought.

Dual lands and non rotating card pool attract players to legacy. A player can "buy a deck" and expect "that deck" to be legal for years. Having seen hundreds of players come and go over nearly 20 years not one has ever gotten into a format for one card. If you are on the "I'd quit" train then you weren't really interested in playing the format anyway. The amount of new initiates to legacy who start playing because of Brainstorm is non-existent. A new player will hardly even understand the interaction and tension between a card like brainstorm and the various shuffle effects that make it insane (fetches, SFM, ponder, etc.).

Brainstorm was actually the card that moved my interest in the format into a serious endeavor. Watching a local game and having the decision tree sort of coalesce before my eyes just blew me away. Watching players dig for answers to shuffle the dead cards away, hide key cards from discard and then use it to find that critical counter to win the game. Also watching people on the play play land-go, then at the end of their opponent's turn cast a Brainstorm, draw 3, put 2 back, then naturally draw those same cards, established the card isn't an autopiloted card. I've seen it be at the source of multiple misplays, such that it helps screen good players from not good.

So yeah, Brainstorm is Legacy for me.