Just because something is working doesn't mean it can't work better. Especially if you predict a metagame heavy in a particular archetype, it can be beneficial to adjust your deck accordingly to have a stronger game against those types of decks.
Hello,
because, it is not not working all the time ( Mirror matches), and it works not for all people just for some. So changes could be made
to get a better Mirror Match and then again for personal playstyle strategy and Metagame.
and ofcouse if you want the math approach because certainly it can be more effiecent then now, improve consitency reduce vairity and
improve cost-effectiveness.
Best ragards Teveshszat
If people are going to start playing Control again I'm switching back to Thassa. Drawing a card every turn is no joke, and her Indestructible nature gives you an edge against Wear & Tear/Disenchant effects. She still gets Path'd or whatever, but you don't care because she's only a Creature when you have equally broken stuff in play.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Originally Posted by useL
Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
I personally feel that it's pointless to meta a Legacy event that's outside of your LGS. Any event in the SCG size or greater is wide open.
More Clique is of course the obvious idea, so is more CB. Joe's list is probably the best version by that logic. However, I wouldn't take Joe's list to unknown meta, that's just me.
In mirror, let's say you're behind, as in opponent has CB/Jace on his board and you don't have any. You have couple ways to come back using the following SB cards:
1. Venser: Yes, it's vulnerable to blast, but if they spend their only/few Red source on Venser EOT, you might be able to resolve your Jace on your own turn.
2. Sulfur Elemental: It's very possible opponent SB-out some StP. You can easily kill opponent's Jace, especially if you have your Karakas in play.
3. Wear//Tear: I'm saying this because your list runs Disenchant. Wear//Tear targeting your opponent's CB and someone's Top using Fuse, CB flip 3 is much harder than 2.
Good job on everyone's finish!
I'm glad to see good results being put up, but there's always room for improvement. The mirror matches are never fun, the real question is, what's the tech edge (pun intended) in the mirror? Time will tell.
Hopefully now this gets moved back to DTB.
-Matt
Ooooh I would have loved to be that 4th/5th guy... but I threw away one match completely and got "no land mulled" multiple times in both games of another match. Anyway without the AMA I don't think I would have had a chance to play the deck that effectively at all since I just picked it up a couple of weeks before the GP. It is really tough on the mind and in a long tournament many decisions have to be automatic and fast so there is enough "concentration power" left for the difficult spots. But I think it is one of the best decks in the format since it's existence and THE best deck since TNN. It is just much harder to play perfectly than most other decks, but if you master it like Einherjer it can be incredibly rewarding.
Btw.: AMA is a perfect... the seal for a good quality decklist.
Next thing we really have to test is the SFM. After seeing PV crushing Philipp on the draw with a Mulligan to 4 just because of his Mystic it is surely worth testing it. My concern is how good/useful it is in any other fair matchups, but we will see.
Currently playing: Elves
Einherjer, I have a few questions about your list (and a huge congrats! European Miracles players really showed us up in the US, we better bring the heat in New Jersey... :p).
Why the third Tundra (over say a Mystic Gate or something)?
Why so many Flusterstorms?
Why the 4 MD Terminus as opposed to a 3-1 Terminus/Verdict split?
With no Pithing Needle, Humility, Venser, or ORing you seem a little light on Sneak Attack hate, was this an intentional meta-game risk or did you feel like the MU is good enough without these cards?
As for the mirror, more Cliques would definitely help a whole lot and the fourth Counterbalance wouldn't hurt either. I've liked Enlightened Tutor in the mirror as well, and if you want to go super deep, Luminarch Ascension is probably one of the most backbreaking cards in the mirror. How did you SB for the mirror?
Re Einherjer
Congratulations again!
I am really curious about the reasoning of the changes you made since the GP Vienna Legacy event:
Second Ponder over the 3rd Enteat.
Second Volcanic over the 4th Tundra and the sideboard Mountain.
4th Ternimus over 3+1 Supreme.
2 CS and 2 SP instead of 1 3.
No 4 Reb effects SB?
The SB is "totally" different.
Could you manage to take back the Miracles topic to the Deck to Beat cathergory in this website? I think this and BUG are now really the decks to beat!
Thank you!
mtglegacy.blog.hu
mtgvintage.blog.hu
@Dzra I can answer you some stuff.
-4 Terminus is better against all the Esper decks, which we expected to see a lot. Almost the whole mtgmadness team was on Esper.
- From my experience Sneak/Show is a little bit more than 50/50 with the MD/SB he played. I don't know if there exists a way to improve that whithout damaging the win % against other decks like Delver, Esper etc.
I wouldn't also tune much for the mirror, because this is Legacy and if you want to do well and are not a gambler like the guy who played blasts MD (it worked but that doesnt mean it's good) your best way to win a large tournament is not to tune for some decks but to be as good positioned as possible against an open field.
I also don't think that there will be a noteable increase in Miracle decks, because i never heard about guys who picked the deck up last night because their friends told them so and then they did win a big tournament.
Playing Miracle is really hard and for a lot of people it's a boring deck to play with or against.
TheRiedl on Magic Online
About Magic Online:
I can play legacy whenever I want. Cardboard has no value. Data has no value. My time and enjoyment has high value to me. More legacy = more fun. Buy in.
I also played Miracles at the GP, going with a former list of Joe Lossett with minimal changes(3 Spell Pierces in the main, Sulfur Elemental and Celestial Purge in the sideboard).
First of all I want to congratulate my austrian mates who did so well with this deck, especially Philipp. Amazing job.
Went 3-3 Drop without Byes due to quite some variance in my matchups, which I think I handled the best I could while playing fast and not making fatal mistakes at all.
If someone cares, here is a small recap from my side:
R1: ANT 2:0 (it's really hard to lose this with 4 CB and a Venser maindeck)
R2: NicFit Brew 1:0 : Going to time since the whole game was revolving around chumpblocking a Thrun with Venser/Karakas engine and Venserbouncing his big mana plays until i found Entreat.
R3: Sundering MUD 2:0 : Really stunning games with Karn ultimate going on and huge Venseraction again. I swear any miracle player who doesn't run Venser would have lost against this guy.
Highlight of the match: I have a Venser in play in G2, another one in hand and draw into a Jace, knowing he has All is dust in hand. So i keep beating him with Venser the whole game while countering his bombs, so he finally got mad and all-is-dusted the first Venser, so i could EOT Venser one of his Cloudpost with City of Traitors in play to his hand and play Jace in my turn and take the game. That felt really cool.
R4: Lejay with RW Painter 0:2 , who later went Top8: This guy had amazing draws. We played draw go with him having a top in play for like 6 turns until i felt confident enough to drop my Counterbalance/clique/jace with counterbackup. It turned out that he had 5(!) Red Blasts that game, countered anything i tried to resolve and went with Enlightened Tutor for the win eventually.
Game 2 was weird as hell. He started with T1 hardcast Spirit Guide, T2 Ensnaring Bridge and T3 with his 1-of Koth of the Hammer. With clique as my only answer to Koth and Explosives in hand i was facing a dilemma. He eventually ticked up to 5, then going to ultimate and grind me out with his 4 Mountains. What a shame Venser can't bounce Emblems..
R5: BUG Delver 0:2 : Siiick draws from him. He had everything he needed, all the time. Multiple discard spells, counters, Delver, Goyf, Liliana, Stifle, Wasteland. When he had multiple Hymns, he also had multiple Forces for my Misdirections. I got totally crushed here.
R6: Jund 0:1 : Got a game loss for being 2 minutes to late, as i couldn't find this very well hidden table. G2 he ran away with it as i was about to stabilize the next turn with being on 2 life, he is playing from the top. Topdecks punishing fire. Thats a miserable experience after pushing trough Discard, 3(!) Bloodbraid Elves(cliqued away the 2nd into the 3rd), Goyfs, Shamans, Liliana and a weird manland he played.
For what its worth, i got paired with some random stuff which I still pushed trough and lost many games in a row due to ridiculous draws from my opponents.
The deck felt absolutely stunning tough, and I could have done way better if a few things went more in my favour.
Some of you might have noticed my fascination for Venser, as he is nuts in turning games around out of nowhere. I suggest anyone who didn't test him yet to try him with 2 Karakas and 3 Cliques.
True strength lies in action. Let the weak react to me! -Kamahl, Pit Fighter
Will Miracles win GP Paris?
I'm not big on rumors, but this is pretty wild if it turns out to be true. I saw the Brainstorm clip that was posted, but having no context to work from, I thought it looked like an accident.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...par14/standfin
Joe went over the decklists on his stream
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/b/504203064?t=185m35s
Re-watching it, my criticism of canonist against sneak&show doesn't make any sense.
It's okay, we all like to be critical sometimes :D
Does anyone have a link to the clip? (and where would I find the video coverage in general for that matter?)
Google: grand prix paris video coverage
2nd result: "Jump to Live Video Stream Information" -> http://www.twitch.tv/magic for finals, semis, quarters
Ok, so I believe the Brainstorm in question is at 8:47.
http://www.twitch.tv/magic/b/503812813
I'm not sure if it's cheating or just being tired... Personally, I've accidentally drawn/knocked over extra cards before and I've even skipped my draw step entirely before, but I don't think that I've ever put back less than two cards off of Brainstorm. It's somewhat interesting (and also unfortunate) that right at the time of the Brainstorm, the judges are away from the game due to the prior ruling that just took place. Maybe this isn't the place to discuss this though.
I'm sorry Joe, but I'm with Einherjer regarding the pros and cons of different builds. I do believe that Snapcaster-centric build, which utilizes Ponder and shy away from Venser, is the direction to go. Of course, you can always prove others (including me) wrong by doing well in SCG and GP.
Personally, I don't see why you wouldn't want a ton of Cliques as well as Snapcaster and Venser. AFCATT. All Flash Creatures, All The Time.
Also Joe, why do you think that UB Tezz is favored over Miracles? I've found that I win basically every game that doesn't involve a turn 2/3 planeswalker. Miracles will pretty easily lose to an early planeswalker or multiple fast planeswalkers, but outside of that, I feel like the MU is very favorable.
And as a side note, I think that leaving in one or two Terminus is fine. Swords to Plowshares almost certainly has to come out because in addition to not needing much removal, it helps minimize Chalice. A couple sweepers seem fine; I think the question is whether Supreme Verdict or Terminus is better.
Supreme Verdict pros:
4cmc for Counterbalance (since planeswalkers are the main threat)
Pitches to FoW
Terminus pros:
Instant speed (blowouts against Tezz ultimate)
Puts creatures on bottom to avoid Academy Ruins recursion (especially against Wurmcoil Engine)
Unless you know that Wurmcoil is present, I'd probably play with two Supreme Verdict post-board.
even 6th ranked Miracle player only plays a Disenchant against a Chalice@1
His other only answear is EE. EE can be shut down by anything. Hard counters and Pithing Needle (tutorable with Tezzeret)
A turn 1 Chalice sounds like almost unrecoverable.. and he plays 4 all the times. I find modern Miracle lists so light on removals (apart from creature removals)
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