I saw A LOT of shady plays at this GP and seriously start to wonder how much cheating was/gets actually done at big tournaments. Similar things happened at BoM Annecy 2013 where two undefeated players got DQed mid-day 2 for stacking their decks.
They should definitely punish Dominguez for that cheat, hopefully it will be a warning to all of the other cheaters that did not get featured on camera.
I definitely prefer my local community, where I know every one plays honestly, to the whole European Legacy scene which seems more and more shady to me with every GP/BoM I attend.
While I agree that we should use all the tools available to monitor matches like the one in discussion, at the same time that would be 1% (or less) of all the matches in an event like a GP...it is not enough.
I strongly believe that if a player cheats in an important event like a GP and "on camera" he is probably used to behave in such a way. It means that he should have been caught before and sanctioned in a way that would prevent any form of participation to organized play for a very very long time. What I mean is that rules enforcement and pruning of the players that are not morally at the right level should happen way before a thing of this kind happens and if a player's curriculum gets stained by cheating he/she should be prevented from participating to a professional/semi-professional event forever.
If J. Dominguez gets disqualified for cheating on-camera I don't want to know what he may have done during the rest of the GP when he met less prepared opponents and was very far from the eyes of a judge...
Increasing the chances of catching even 1% of cheaters is worth it, imo.
If I'm a player who is thinking of spending hundreds of dollars on travel, hotel, food, tourney entry, etc, I want to have confidence that the tourney organizers are taking all reasonable and necessary steps so that the competition is fair and even. If I know that cheating happens regularly at a particular tournament, I'll likely spend my tournament money elsewhere.
I'm sure I wasn't clear: I agree with you, if something can be done it needs to be done.Originally Posted by Arsenal
At the same time I believe that it is not even remotely close to be enough. We need cheaters eradicated from the competitive environment long before they have a chance to cheat on-camera during a GP Top8.
In no way am I trying to start something but honestly think about how realistic that expectation is. Our world is teeny tiny potatoes compared to poker or gambling. Both Poker and Gambling ventures have very long histories filled with successful cheaters. The budget to catch cheats in those arenas is very very high. Think about all of those pit bosses and middle managers in Casinoes and all of the pros in the back room looking at live feeds. All of them are getting paid real money and still cheats succeed sometimes.
Cheaters have been a big part of Magic since 1993. They will continue to be. I don't like it any more than any other honest player but to pretend like things are fine is pretty ignorant. Similarly, to think that you can fix the problem by putting more duties on already busy judges is rather rediculous. I doubt very many judges are adept at catching cheaters. Until something pretty big changes I expect that cheating will continue to have a big affect on our game. The early rounds are a free for all for cheaters as the judges are vastly outnumbered. If I can figure that out, I am sure that cheaters have as well.
The only simple thing I can think of which should decrease the kind of cheating discussed here is to require players to deal cards to thier opponent. I know it sounds wierd but when you think about it but it would work. I have suggested it a few times in various forums but noone seems to think it is a good idea. That is fine with me but I stand by my point that it would help the situation.
Peace
It is on the players to be watchful of their opponent and for them to call a judge if there is ever a question about anything that even SEEMS sketchy to weed out cheaters.
In case it is a cheat it would be a new category of cheater. Unlike Bertoncinis brainstorm the cheat is so easy to detect that there is no hope for him that it is not noticed... So he would have to expect to be caught and hope the judges rule it as a mistake and even in this case live with the shame of being a potential undetected cheater or at least winning a tournament based on a missed game loss.
Is it known if the card was critical for the game state? If not and his warning history does not indicate anything I would just rule it as a mistake.
Currently playing: Elves
I didn't see the match, but did the mistake have something to do with a Delver trigger? It's possible that the player mistakenly thought he was playing a Brainstorm during his upkeep, and put 1 back since he would then have a natural draw after upkeep.
I'm not defending cheating in the slightest, but mistakes *do* happen, and something sloppy like this doesn't mean that he was doing it the entire tournament. There are a ton of complex interactions that can be easy to mistake, especially consider a player's mental state after dozens of rounds of playing, jetlag, lack of sleep, lack of proper nutrition, etc.
As a matter of habit, I try to keep track of my opponent's hand size, especially when they play cards like Brainstorm, Ponder, and Jace +0. I'm not saying it's entirely up to you to prevent cheating, but his opponent and the judges watching the match should have caught this at the time.
I'm confused, someone enlightens me with answer(s): what's the difference between mistakes and cheats, does it come down to intent?
If... the difference is intent, how do judges discover or determine that?
I saw the video coverage live, here is what I saw: I saw 2 very tired players, relaxed and excited, seemly having fun. I wonder how many energy drinks have they consumed. I did not even spot the so-called brainstorm mishap when it occurred. To me, the final's decided by game 2 Javier drew his one-of null rod and jammed it early, game 3 Maxime threw it away when he did not hide his RiP from hymn.
Now, people are creating Internet storm about Javier using keyboards and pitchforks, and I feel like I'm the only person feeling disgusted by Maxime's decision.
Should Javier be punished for his GRV? Absolutely yes. Should he be deemed a cheater or did he actually perform the act of cheating? I'm still not sure. These topics should not be mixed.
Seems like Wizards is reviewing the issue. Final Standings are under re-examination.
Also, the incident was not related to a Delver trigger. He played Delver afterwards.
Technically Brainstorm says draw 3 cards. So it's not drawing extra cards (game loss), he fails to fulfill the terms of the spell by not putting 2 back. Another nail in Brainstorms coffin is it's an open opportunity for people to savagely cheat. This humiliating top 8 GP example of it looks awful for WotC. He's obviously cheating because e's a top 8 GP competitor who knows better. He even counts his 'put backs out'.
Explain yourself or you will end on my ignore-list faster than you can say "fuck". Either you used the wrong word unitentionally or you're finally being ignored.
Greetings
He starts his turn with 1 card in hand, untaps.
Draws for turn and just flips it over to reveal it's a Brainstorm without ever having that card interact with with the card in his hand.
So he's drawn his card for turn, 1 card in hand, drawn card face up in front of him.
Taps an Underground Sea to pay for Brainstorm.
Draws 3 cards, 4 now in hand.
Puts 1 card back.
Plays Delver of Secrets and a Flooded Strand.
Still has one card in hand.
If he had put 2 back, his hand should be empty, and it's not.
Please don't bring that crap thread in here. Just because he might of forgot/cheated in no way has anything to do with wotc or the dci. It is solely the responsibility of the player to play correctly.
So not only do I have to focus on my own game, I have to watch my opponent to ensure he isn't cheating? Why not just have a Judge at EVERY single table then?
I'd rather not encourage a toxic environment if I have to assume my opponent is a cheater and I must play Watchman while also playing magic.
This is actually the perfect and correct thread to bring this topic into. If you can't handle the topic, don't discuss it. And don't waste your time telling others not to.
Way stricter rule enforcement is probably way to go here, be it intentional or not. As long as reward > risk, cheating is going to be rampant.
Banning a card because it promotes cheating is can of worms I would rather not open. Cards should only be banned if it affects the format itself badly in some way, not because some people break the rules.
Agreed.
The other awkward thing is the opponent looks away when Javier is still resolving the Brainstorm for some reason, and he has t assume J. put two cards back, even though he had only counted one back. However, I also don't see Javier glance up while the other guy is looking away, trying to "see" if he could get away with it. Either he made a mistake or he's cheated before. It's really hard to tell, but there's a lot to gain when you make a mistake with Brainstorm as opposed to another card/scenario.
-Matt
Explain what? If you watch the coverage now, commentators mentioned that Miracle's favored going in. You said it yourself you would have crushed BUG. Obviously, the result did not turn out that way. How could this be? Shouldn't the discussion on a GP Paris thread about how Miracle didn't get it done? Instead the thread focuses on BUG player for the wrong reason. To me at the least, not hiding the RiP game 3 is huge. I wish Maxime would come to this thread and explain his decision process on that one. Can the topic shift from the so called Cheating to why Miracle was favored but did not win?
Banning a card because it's too easy to abuse and/or logistical issues is a valid reason to ban such a card.
Worldgorger Dragon
Shahrazad
Come to mind.
Luck.
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