Miracle Control

[SirTylerGalt]

ok, you're right. But it can't go high in counters. It can just +0. That's relevant (and anyway is just another, marginal, upside of Leyline. We're playing it as the best hate ever for black)

You can use Jace's +2 targeting yourself, to put a useless card on the bottom. I do it often.

[twndomn]

Does anyone have a good boarding plan against BUG Delver?

I went with -3 Force, -4 Balance, -3 Pierce for +2 Misdirection, +3 Rest in Peace, +1 Explosives, +3 REB, +1 Entreat at the GP.
It was not bad on paper, but it turned out that i came into bad situations where my opp. Stifles my fetch and I had to crack another fetch for Volcanic to REB his Stifle.
This left me wide open to Wasteland and lost me the game mostly because of that. Running a mountain still seems stupid to me, as you need to fetch more to have access to all 3 colors and always opens yourself to stifle either. Maybe leaving in 3 Pierces is correct, but i am not sold on that either. Thoughts?

First of all, which version of Miracle are you running? Joe's Clique-heavy version or Ein's Snapcaster-heavy version?

Second, GP BUG Delver winner doesn't run Stifle, I don't perceive Stifle version as the common BUG Delver build.

Unlike Shardless BUG, if you were able to resolve a Misdirected Hymn, you'll probably win the game. I once Misdirect Hymn but Shardless BUG bounced back from Brainstorm into setting up Shardless Agent into Vision. BUG Delver cannot do that. If your SB has 2 EE, I would SB both of them in. If you try to trade your best early game, as long as BUG doesn't double Hymn and you avoid Liliana Ultimate, you'll win.

[catmint]

Compare the BUG matchup to it's cousin UWR. Which one is easier?

The good thing about miracles is that it has some great matchups, a lot which are ok or slightly positive/negative where your skill and build will be tested and very few bad ones. Esper control is a bad matchup because it has countermagic, discard, card advantage, powerful creatures and planeswalkers. It's too much to handle for miracles. BUG is similar to that however their creatures and planeswalkers are worse, but they can easily run these high impact cards which can win the game. It is like Canadian with or without vortex ... a whole different game.

If the BUG deck evolves, gets more "solved" like Canadian was and people plan for miracles times will get tougher. My current plan with my BUG list against miracles.
(I play 2 Liliana main)
-3 Wasteland
-4 daze
-2 Stalker
+2 Library
+2 Clique
+2 Needle
+3 Spell pierce

[twndomn]

Compare the BUG matchup to it's cousin UWR. Which one is easier?

The good thing about miracles is that it has some great matchups, a lot which are ok or slightly positive/negative where your skill and build will be tested and very few bad ones. Esper control is a bad matchup because it has countermagic, discard, card advantage, powerful creatures and planeswalkers. It's too much to handle for miracles. BUG is similar to that however their creatures and planeswalkers are worse, but they can easily run these high impact cards which can win the game. It is like Canadian with or without vortex ... a whole different game.

I used to follow the same line of logic as yours, until I tried Ein's version. If you run Ein's snapcaster-heavy build, your chance of losing to fair deck is rather low.

First of all, in my opinion, BUG's cousin is RUG Delver, not UWR. BUG and RUG don't run SFM equipment package. Comparing to RUG, BUG's actually slower and you can be at lower life total than against RUG, because you don't fear getting Bolted out of the game without CB-T setup.

Second, I disagree with Esper control as bad match-up, it depends on which Miracle build you're on. If you're running Joe's version, it's harder, but not impossible. If you want to be certain and come out ahead on this match-up, just build your list as close to as Ein's build as possible.

[ThoSha]

@twndomn:
I play Joe's legendbuild without the Red Blasts main, with only 1 Explosives in the side.
I know what Misdirection does to them if used proper.
The problem is, you can't always pull it off. Sometimes they'll be on the play, Thoughtseize your Misdirection/Pitchcard, T2 Hymn you.

Played BUG Delver twice in that weekend, both lists ran Stifle. Its really hard for me to guess if they have it or not.
If they do, chances are high you'll get blown out of G2 if you fetch early for red. If this Deck runs rampant now, i'll be scared to board in the REBs at all.
Of course they kill Delver, counter key brainstorms and are hardcounters, but at a big sacrifice in terms of a stable manabase.

Not sure if this is correct, thats why i want your opinions on this regard.
Which counter-setup do you like postboard against BUG and for what reasons?

@catmint
I would choose to battle UWR Delver all day. :D

Thanks for showing your boarding plan from the BUG-side, that helps.

[twndomn]

@twndomn:
I play Joe's legendbuild without the Red Blasts main, with only 1 Explosives in the side.
I know what Misdirection does to them if used proper.
The problem is, you can't always pull it off. Sometimes they'll be on the play, Thoughtseize your Misdirection/Pitchcard, T2 Hymn you.

Played BUG Delver twice in that weekend, both lists ran Stifle. Its really hard for me to guess if they have it or not.
If they do, chances are high you'll get blown out of G2 if you fetch early for red. If this Deck runs rampant now, i'll be scared to board in the REBs at all.
Of course they kill Delver, counter key brainstorms and are hardcounters, but at a big sacrifice in terms of a stable manabase.

Not sure if this is correct, thats why i want your opinions on this regard.
Which counter-setup do you like postboard against BUG and for what reasons?

You're disturbed because you run into Bug Delver with Stifle. Now the no-Stifle version won the GP, I'm sure many Legacy players would just assume that's better. Don't be too concerned. Is it Joe or someone else mentioned that because BUG has many Decays and Golgari Charms, CB's no longer effective? I'm not convinced taking out CB. I can see why people would take out CB, but I'm more than happy if you AD my CB instead of my Clique/RiP. If I have both CB and RiP, I am willing to throw CB first, just to get Decayed.

For Clique-heavy build, I would (up for discussion)
-4 Force, -3 Pierce, -1 CS, -1 Snapcaster, +1 Misdirection, +3 Rest in Peace, +2 Explosives, +1 Entreat, +2 Blast

From my experience, try to apply what you've learned from RUG Delver to this MU early game. I would still lose it if Liliana eventually sticks and goes Ultimate.

[Cipher]

I think if you want a card (or two?) against BUG delver that Misdirection would actually be very valuable in the board. Obviously it has a lot of uses against other decks in winning the counterwar, but BUG in particular has a lot of very relevant targets: Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, any of their counterspells, abupt decay (from our balance to one of their permanents generally).

I think Misdirection was always a poor choice. These matchups are like a broken record. They just attack your hand and play Liliana. The games where they don't draw her or she doesn't resolve, they're a sad RUG Delver deck with no Stifle. I believe Einherjer is referencing the fact that their aggro plan is extremely weak to Miracles, when he says it's an easy matchup. All they really have going on is discard -> Liliana. Misdirection/Force are weak against discard, and even though throwing a Hymn to Tourach back in your opponent's face is a fun blowout which I've had the pleasure of experiencing, it's really just a 3-for-2 and you've given up the ability to counter their only serious threat by running a Redirect.

I think it's best to assume that your hand will be shredded, and just play off the top. I leave in Spell Pierce, since it can counter Liliana, but I take out Forces and don't bother with cards like Flusterstorm which attack Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach.

Leyline also kills Liliana and Jace, avoids Abrupt Decay and kills from turn 0 Hymn, Duress Thoughtseize and whatever.

I don't know if we really don't need/like it...

They all run Golgari Charm. Griefer cards like Leyline or Slaughter Games are by design so weak that they need to almost single-handedly win the game themselves. Just stopping them from casting 8-10 spells is like a double Nevermore, except in this case, you need it in you opening 7 cards to be more than just an answer to Liliana's ultimate. Considering the amount of cards you see with this deck, particularly in this matchup, I'd say you're looking at it being harcast 60 or 70% of the time.

Joe made a good point on his stream about there being no reason the only run the full playset, or none at all. The underlying statistics don't change, and actually drawing multiple Leylines because you boarded in 4 of these might just lead to you dying to Delvers. A singleton Leyline is the most I would try for.

[lyracian]

The problem is, you can't always pull it off. Sometimes they'll be on the play, Thoughtseize your Misdirection/Pitchcard, T2 Hymn you.

Why are you letting the Thoughtseize resolve if you have misdirection? If you use it on the Thoughtseize you would both be down 2 cards but you would have the advantage of knowing the remaining 4 cards in the opponents hand and having effectively dealt them 2 damage with Misdirection.

[ThoSha]

Its not like I wouldn't misdirect the Thoughtseize in the first place, i was just saying that you will not always be able to misdirect their Hymns, which is the real deal.
I apologize for not being clear on that.

[Dzra]

I beat atleast 1 superhatepiece (Null Rod/Library/Winter Orb) in addition to Hymn and Lilly plus Spell Pierce every game. Team America is a good Match-Up. If the TA pilot is prepared for this MU its harder, but still one of the better ones.

Ironically, I've considered BUG Delver to be a very easy MU, however, I ended up losing to it last night. He resolved a Liliana and while I was still trying to develop my mana to fight it off with Venser, he resolved a Winter Orb. It's likely that I should have boarded in Disenchant in anticipation of Sylvan Library, but Winter Orb took me completely by surprise. That was the first time I've ever had to look at that card from across the board, and it wasn't pleasant at all. Outside of being able to destroy/bounce it, is there a good strategy to not just fold to it?

[YamiJoey]

Its not like I wouldn't misdirect the Thoughtseize in the first place, i was just saying that you will not always be able to misdirect their Hymns, which is the real deal.
I apologize for not being clear on that.

But 'Seizing their Hymn is just as good. We work better in topdeck mode.

Also did someone just say that playing 1-of a card is the same as playing 4-of when it comes to needing a card in your opening hand? Because that's total bullshit. If your argument is "If you ever draw more than one, especially post mulligans, you lose" then that's fine, but you definitely have a higher chance of drawing it with more in your deck. Otherwise you'd run 0 and hit every time.

[twndomn]

But 'Seizing their Hymn is just as good. We work better in topdeck mode.

Also did someone just say that playing 1-of a card is the same as playing 4-of when it comes to needing a card in your opening hand? Because that's total bullshit. If your argument is "If you ever draw more than one, especially post mulligans, you lose" then that's fine, but you definitely have a higher chance of drawing it with more in your deck. Otherwise you'd run 0 and hit every time.

No no~, the argument is getting mixed up. Say you have 4 Leyline for your Omni-tell or High Tide deck, obviously, you would SB all of them in for the appropriate MU. As Miracle, you don't want to spend 4 SB slot for 4 Leyline. In that case, is having 1 SB Leyline considered ok? According whoever wrote it here or heard it from other people, it's ok. Having 1 is still better than Zero in your 75, when you don't have the luxury to run 4. I believe that's the argument whoever was trying to say.

I personally would not have Leyline at all.

Think of BUG Delver as a lesser threat-density version of Jund, as well as a slower version of RUG. While Jund has Choke, BUG Delver decides to go for the weaker Winter Orb. Fun fact: The German Winter Orb says: Frostbringer on the card.http://magiccards.info/5e/de/408.html

[YamiJoey]

"The underlying statistics don't change"

That was the comment that stood out to me. I agree, Leyline of Sanctity may actually be a good card for us. In the mirror we can keep in a larger amount of removal and use Leyline + Terminus as a method of ensuring we basically can't die, forcing them to go for a huge Entreat with countermagic backup, or just lose to inevitability.

Also I ran a singleton Blue Sun's Zenith a short while back. I ended up having to cut it for space and because the mirror basically never happened, but it seems like it may actually be a legit card these days. A Great method of actually gaining card advantage outside of Jace and Counterbalance, and it can eventually be used to kill people.

[Shawn]

Don't board Leyline in the mirror. It's not the scrying/fatesealing that wins the game; it's the CA from Jace that gets you in that position to do so which ends it.

Sent from my SCH-R890 using Tapatalk

[JPoJohnson]

"The underlying statistics don't change"

That was the comment that stood out to me. I agree, Leyline of Sanctity may actually be a good card for us. In the mirror we can keep in a larger amount of removal and use Leyline + Terminus as a method of ensuring we basically can't die, forcing them to go for a huge Entreat with countermagic backup, or just lose to inevitability.

Also I ran a singleton Blue Sun's Zenith a short while back. I ended up having to cut it for space and because the mirror basically never happened, but it seems like it may actually be a legit card these days. A Great method of actually gaining card advantage outside of Jace and Counterbalance, and it can eventually be used to kill people.

I personally dislike the idea of including it, but why wouldn't you play Sphinx's Revelation over BSZ if you did want to run it?

[YamiJoey]

I personally dislike the idea of including it, but why wouldn't you play Sphinx's Revelation over BSZ if you did want to run it?

USZ can be used to kill people as a pseudo Entreat later on, but the life gain is not irrelevant.

Also; they literally cannot kill you with Leyline out. As in, you cannot lose until Leyline leaves the battlefield. Draw a card every turn, I will Terminus your Angels, and StP everything else, and you will lose the game.

I'm not saying it's a sound strategy, just one that I have come up with that should definitely be tested.

[Dzra]

Also; they literally cannot kill you with Leyline out. As in, you cannot lose until Leyline leaves the battlefield. Draw a card every turn, I will Terminus your Angels, and StP everything else, and you will lose the game.

Not to be a negative Nancy, but this strategy seems so bad. Instead of trying to assembling the Leyline + Removal soft lock (and it is a very soft lock since it doesn't stop them from Brainstorming every turn into more counters, enchantment removal, and bombs), you could be cutting removal and situational Leylines for more bombs, enchantment removal, and counters of your own.

Back to beating Winter Orb... Any strategies? Should you just be draw-going until you have enough lands to cast a bomb? Choosing between untapping a land and using Top EoT is excruciating.

[twndomn]

I got asked on Twitter how I deal with the 12 post matchup. Being that this is a very budget deck, it's something I actually run into in the local meta fairly frequently and I'd really like to know how ya'll handle it as well.

Blood Moon shuts down the combo 100%. If you went first or they didn't get the nuts, you have a fighting chance to lock them out with Moon. However, this requires a very particular hand with either blood moon in your first 10 cards or spending most of a turn using enlightened tutor to find it. I run one main and one side and always bring in the second moon.

Humility is freaking sweet and I think anyone who knows me knows I love it. I think it's just too slow. Again, you need to actually get it into your hand and have double white on turn four (not that this should be a problem). Humility has the secondary problem of shutting down many of our winconditions, including Venser, Clique, and Entreat.

Ensnaring Bridge is my current favorite solution. It comes down on turn 3 with no colored mana requirement.

Terminus is freaking sweet. At the end of the turn they cast emrakul, putting it at the bottom means that their entire extra turn was spent durdling. You've effectively given them an extra land drop and nothing else

In games 2 and 3, I take out my swords and 1-of supreme verdict. Though the verdict does hit emrakul, it's unlikely Anihilator 6 will leave me with four lands.

If you're looking for stuff to bring in because you've now taken out 3-5 cards, O-ring isn't terrible. It's especially good if they play one of the 12 post variants that also has show and tell. Meddling Mage is another not-terrible option.

Any input on how else to deal with this pretty tricky matchup?

Well.., first input is that your understanding is massively incorrect.

1. It's not a budget deck, Candelabra of Tawnos is expensive.

2. Blood Moon only buys you time, The deck runs Repeal. They can just float Blue Mana in response, or play Map into a basic Island for Repeal. Same reasoning applies to Humility and Bridge.

3. Terminus does nothing, it's downright foolish if they have Eye of Ugin in play. If you need to Terminus Eldrazi, it's likely 12 post has tutored it up using Eye already.

Bottom line: you are the aggro deck here, you have to be, EtA as soon as you can. The longer you don't deal damage, the more likely you'll die to Eldrazi. Play some threats and try to stop as many Maps and Crop Rotations as possible. You need to have a rare draw/opening to beat 12 Post's average draw/opening.

Back to beating Winter Orb... Any strategies? Should you just be draw-going until you have enough lands to cast a bomb? Choosing between untapping a land and using Top EoT is excruciating.

How do you beat Choke? Same logic applies.

[YamiJoey]

White Sun's Zenith still beats 12-mana 1/1's cast from Basic Lands. EtA gets there easily. You've already committed to a new win con by putting Humility in your 75. You slam Jace and Fateseal anything that doesn't kill Humility away.

[alphastryk]

Went 5-0-1 to win my local store weekly event with the same list I played in Nashville. I've tried playing around with more counter-heavy boards but I still find the best way to beat combo is hatebears. I'll probably be taking the same list to SCG Atlanta in a week and a half.

Revoker has consistently over-performed, and I'm definitely convinced it is better than the second Pithing Needle.