[Deck] 12 Post

[Rock Lee]

What zotmaster said is accurate, and has been stated in this thread multiple times. The people who will be the most frustrated playing this deck are the ones playing it like combo, not control.

[Zotmaster]

A couple hilarious plays helped take some of the sting out of a 2-2 showing locally today.

0-2 versus Smallpox, 2-0 versus Nic Fit, 2-0 versus Affinity, 0-2 versus Esper Deathblade.

High points: Playing against four different decks who more or less lose to Show and Tell > anything. Playing Nic Fit in general, as it's very, very hard to lose. Winning with a 20-point Bonfire of the Damned against Affinity. Getting several 2-for-1's with Fire / Ice.

Low points: mulliganing against Smallpox, getting a Hymn to Tourach with three Primeval Titan in hand and losing my two extra lands instead of the Titans. The fact that the Titans and Sensei's Divining Top are magnetically attracted to the top of my deck. Second straight tournament where I played a deck that recurred Wasteland with Life from the Loam. Seriously considering adding back in some number of Pithing Needle because Wasteland/Loam really, really sucks.

Hilarious point: Affinity player playing Nic Fit player. Affinity player casts Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Opts to make his Lotus Petal a 5/5. Nic Fit player plays Thrun, the last Troll. Affinity player puts 2 Cranial Plating on Petal, making it a 25/5...then casts Fling.

Again, Wasteland/Loam really, really sucks.

[Mockingbird]

A couple hilarious plays helped take some of the sting out of a 2-2 showing locally today.

0-2 versus Smallpox, 2-0 versus Nic Fit, 2-0 versus Affinity, 0-2 versus Esper Deathblade.

High points: Playing against four different decks who more or less lose to Show and Tell > anything. Playing Nic Fit in general, as it's very, very hard to lose. Winning with a 20-point Bonfire of the Damned against Affinity. Getting several 2-for-1's with Fire / Ice.

Low points: mulliganing against Smallpox, getting a Hymn to Tourach with three Primeval Titan in hand and losing my two extra lands instead of the Titans. The fact that the Titans and Sensei's Divining Top are magnetically attracted to the top of my deck. Second straight tournament where I played a deck that recurred Wasteland with Life from the Loam. Seriously considering adding back in some number of Pithing Needle because Wasteland/Loam really, really sucks.

Hilarious point: Affinity player playing Nic Fit player. Affinity player casts Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. Opts to make his Lotus Petal a 5/5. Nic Fit player plays Thrun, the last Troll. Affinity player puts 2 Cranial Plating on Petal, making it a 25/5...then casts Fling.

Again, Wasteland/Loam really, really sucks.

It does. It may be a Meta call, but you may want to retry Surgical Extraction because, first, it can't be Abrupt Decayed, and second, information is power. You get to know everything your opponent is up to that game.

There is the drawback that a Wasteland has to find it's way to their graveyard, which usually means they used Wasteland first, but I wanted to throw the idea out there.

4. Testing no butcher just to squeeze slots. No Standstills, No huge counter wars, and faster clocks all dissuade Kozilek.

http://s147.photobucket.com/user/pre...tml?sort=3&o=0

[Davek]

A lot of it is that shuffle effect. The gods of randomness hate me, and there have been several instances off the top of my head where I've floated two, or even three, Primeval Titan or Eldrazi on the top of my deck with Sensei's Divining Top. Ponder is another effect that can function as another Top while also making those cards, if necessary, go away. Decks like ours need to see as many cards as possible in order to be successful.

Maybe my point of view about Ponder wasn't totally clear... it is a card that i often find to rot in my hand just as much as Ulamog, since i do not want to play it in early turns if i have a top in play and keep seeing decent cards, i do not want to play it if i have a single coloured source and a brainstorm or a crop rotation in hand to protect my hand/lands, i do not want to play if i only have a couple of mana to invest on a important map activation. I play trinket mages, and really appreciate the shuffling effect they provide, but since ponder is a late game play for this deck, i think mage is better.

At least from what I've seen, most combo decks kill you the turn they decide to go off, and the turn you Show and Tell anything in is a turn that costs you three mana and that's it. Your opponent still has his or her turn to progress, and a lot of times that will kill you. Also don't underestimate the value of the fact that your opponent now knows you have two fewer cards that can stop his or her plan. How many cards do you now have in your hand? Two? Well, that means you probably can only counter one spell safely. Three cards in hand? You can probably counter one, maybe two spells if you're lucky.

Let me describe a particular combo matchup to you. One of my friends plays Tin Fins, and sometimes we get matched up against each other when we play in local tournaments. Let me describe Game 1 to you:

Me (Turn 1): Land, maybe play Top, go.
Him (Turn 1): Win the game.

We had a game like this, and for fun, Game 2 I decided to bring my entire 15-card sideboard in against him (a fact that I made clear to him as I was doing it). Why? Because I can, because it's funny, and because all 15 cards I was running (for reference, I'm running Rock's RUG list here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post784770) have game against Tin Fins.

I don't remember what pro Magic player said it - I think it was Frank Karsten - but he described the golden rule of playing control as this: "Don't do anything." Game 2, that's exactly what I did: I did absolutely nothing. If I cast anything, it was one-mana spells, and unless they were Sensei's Divining Top or Ponder, I did it at the end of his turn. Fast forward to around turn 9 or 10 or so. I have a full hand of cards, including 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Force of Will, and a Brainstorm, and I'm floating 2 Mindbreak Trap with Top. I've already countered two reanimation spells with Swan Song. And yet I still did nothing. Play land, go. End of your turn, peek at the library. Play land, go.

Eventually I got to 15 mana, cast Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and won.

The primer mentions it, but it bears being repeated and re-summarized until it's pounded into your head: as the number of turns in a Legacy game increases, so too does this deck's chance of winning. If the game goes past 10 or so turns, I don't care what my opponent is playing: I've won. Storm? Doesn't matter; I've won. Delver? Doesn't matter; I've won. Miracles? Doesn't matter; I've won.

Show and Tell counts as doing something. This deck wants to do nothing, because if the deck can get away with doing nothing for long enough, it wins.

That's fine, but have you checked how long it took you to win that game? 15 minutes? Consider that you were playing a friendly game, so both of you were relaxed and probably didn't mind shuffling your opponent deck at each fetchland/crop rotation/entomb/expedition map, you didn't feel the urge to check your sb choices for g3 and didn't spend a lot in shuffling accurately in order to hopefully have the best cards distribution. All these actions have a cost in terms of time, so during a tournament it would have costed you at least 5 minutes more. Are you really sure you would have been able to keep the game at a pace fast enough to end the third game (assuming you could stop your opponent from doing what he does) in time? If not, there's a hole in this plan (Spell Pierce docet).
Show and tell is of course terrible here, making them play their Griselbrand for free is one of the worst thing you can do.

I'm recording a winning rate of about 80% of the games with this deck, so i'm confident enough to say i know how to play it decently. Anyway, keeping saying that this is a control deck is a bit ridiculous imho. You control nothing. You deny nothing. Playing with his deck is like being Rocky Balboa. You struggle and suffer, spend tears and blood, take the hardest hits but still stand on your feet steady. And when the time is right, you hit them harder than anyone else could do, your fists heavy as tanks that leave no hope to your enemies. This is 12-Post.

[Rock Lee]

I'm recording a winning rate of about 80% of the games with this deck, so i'm confident enough to say i know how to play it decently. Anyway, keeping saying that this is a control deck is a bit ridiculous imho. You control nothing. You deny nothing. Playing with his deck is like being Rocky Balboa. You struggle and suffer, spend tears and blood, take the hardest hits but still stand on your feet steady. And when the time is right, you hit them harder than anyone else could do, your fists heavy as tanks that leave no hope to your enemies. This is 12-Post.

Very inspirational, but only a testament to how this deck can be played sub-optimally and still win regularly. 80% win ratio sounds a bit confirmation bias'd. When the Planeswalker stats were being tallied a few months back, I had the highest Legacy win % I've seen with 86% over 4 years. You'll win more by playing the deck at its peak performance style.

[kingtk3]

Very inspirational, but only a testament to how this deck can be played sub-optimally and still win regularly. 80% win ratio sounds a bit confirmation bias'd. When the Planeswalker stats were being tallied a few months back, I had the highest Legacy win % I've seen with 86% over 4 years. You'll win more by playing the deck at its peak performance style.

I like the deck and I think myself that it should be played as a control one: that's the reason I've been playing red for lightning bolt (preferred to fire/ice because it can kill deathrite/various elves OTD) and bonfire.

However, I admittedly have problems to see how to play the control role with the UG version.
Rock Lee, are there any videos of you (or any other skilled user) playing UG? I think it would help me understand better the deck.

Thank you all!

[Rock Lee]

I like the deck and I think myself that it should be played as a control one: that's the reason I've been playing red for lightning bolt (preferred to fire/ice because it can kill deathrite/various elves OTD) and bonfire.

However, I admittedly have problems to see how to play the control role with the UG version.
Rock Lee, are there any videos of you (or any other skilled user) playing UG? I think it would help me understand better the deck.

Thank you all!

Not that I know of. Perhaps I could do some streaming with MWS.

I know many players who play the deck well though. This isn't just a "I'm a pretty princess" syndrome.

Control decks spend less resources to react to threats and problems than the threat/problem itself cost. Normally this means low cmc counters/removal versus their bomb/threats. In this deck, you also factor in land drop advantage (via counteracting wasteland's inherent card disadvantage) and card parity/advantage (via the deck's 15-20 cantrips)

[Zotmaster]

Maybe my point of view about Ponder wasn't totally clear... it is a card that i often find to rot in my hand just as much as Ulamog, since i do not want to play it in early turns if i have a top in play and keep seeing decent cards, i do not want to play it if i have a single coloured source and a brainstorm or a crop rotation in hand to protect my hand/lands, i do not want to play if i only have a couple of mana to invest on a important map activation. I play trinket mages, and really appreciate the shuffling effect they provide, but since ponder is a late game play for this deck, i think mage is better.

I guess our experiences just vary. I've noted, multiple times, that when I play the deck multiple Tops and Titans seem to be magnetically attracted to the top of my deck. I find Ponder does way, way more work for me than Map.

That's fine, but have you checked how long it took you to win that game? 15 minutes? Consider that you were playing a friendly game, so both of you were relaxed and probably didn't mind shuffling your opponent deck at each fetchland/crop rotation/entomb/expedition map, you didn't feel the urge to check your sb choices for g3 and didn't spend a lot in shuffling accurately in order to hopefully have the best cards distribution. All these actions have a cost in terms of time, so during a tournament it would have costed you at least 5 minutes more. Are you really sure you would have been able to keep the game at a pace fast enough to end the third game (assuming you could stop your opponent from doing what he does) in time? If not, there's a hole in this plan (Spell Pierce docet).
Show and tell is of course terrible here, making them play their Griselbrand for free is one of the worst thing you can do.

I'm recording a winning rate of about 80% of the games with this deck, so i'm confident enough to say i know how to play it decently. Anyway, keeping saying that this is a control deck is a bit ridiculous imho. You control nothing. You deny nothing. Playing with his deck is like being Rocky Balboa. You struggle and suffer, spend tears and blood, take the hardest hits but still stand on your feet steady. And when the time is right, you hit them harder than anyone else could do, your fists heavy as tanks that leave no hope to your enemies. This is 12-Post.

I did note how long it took, because I did it in a tournament. A hobby store near me does weekly Legacy tournaments: they're fairly casual, but they are tournaments. It took about 25 minutes total to win that game. Here's the thing, though: Game 1 is probably about 99-1 in favor of Tin Fins, and that 1 win Post will get involves the Tin Fins player getting hit over the head with a hammer and taking a match loss. However, I'm still playing to win. Here's the thing: after sideboarding all 15 cards, the odds of winning the following games are considerably more in my favor. The only caveat is that I have to let the game progress at a natural pace and not force anything. If I do that, I win. If it takes 20 minutes, well, that's still preferable to losing. If I don't bring in all those cards, I probably lose 2-0 within six minutes.

Perhaps we'll just agree to disagree or your definitions of control are different, but the deck is, without question, a control deck: especially the RUG version. The key is using those few cards to combat things that really mess you up. In the four matches I played just yesterday, I had multiple 2-for-1's with Fire. I reset Jace, the Mind Sculptor with Repeal. I wiped out multiple creatures and a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas with Bonfire of the Damned. I stalled with a Crop Rotation into Glimmerpost to survive lethal, only to Brainstorm into a 20-point Bonfire of the Damned for a win. You don't act; you react. Just because this deck doesn't attack as many things, or as directly, as other decks doesn't mean it's any less of a control deck.

[203995014]

What does the community think about trying Flusterstorm in the mainboard? It could be used to help push through counterspells, counter early discard, and give you a slightly better G1 vs. combo.

[Rock Lee]

What does the community think about trying Flusterstorm in the mainboard? It could be used to help push through counterspells, counter early discard, and give you a slightly better G1 vs. combo.

Funny that you mention that. My current build I'm testing opts for a similar theory vs combo, just with a sideboard card that I ALWAYS want to see versus every combo deck, but still has utility against others. Let me know your thoughts, I'll comment on fluster after.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [ZEN] Forest (4)

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 [M13] Thragtusk
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth


Regarding Fluster, I felt that having it vs aggro or even midrange/tempo was always lackluster. Revoker always eats a bolt (3 life gain), a swords (2 life gain) or blocks (3-4 lifegain) so against non-combo you can value it as effective lifegain game 1, and then side in better cards game 2/3.

[203995014]

Funny that you mention that. My current build I'm testing opts for a similar theory vs combo, just with a sideboard card that I ALWAYS want to see versus every combo deck, but still has utility against others. Let me know your thoughts, I'll comment on fluster after.

// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [LRW] Island (1)
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [RLM] Glacial Chasm
1 [ZEN] Forest (4)

// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 [M13] Thragtusk
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth


Regarding Fluster, I felt that having it vs aggro or even midrange/tempo was always lackluster. Revoker always eats a bolt (3 life gain), a swords (2 life gain) or blocks (3-4 lifegain) so against non-combo you can value it as effective lifegain game 1, and then side in better cards game 2/3.

Mind explaining your sideboard? Thragtusk and Obstinate Baloth seem like they are taking up space for sideboard cards that can be used against decks we actually fear (combo)

Revoker mainboard seems interesting, however I feel like this is going to end up the way Deathrite Shaman did last year with it playing into the opposing strategy too well. I will try both Revokers and Flusterstorms mainboard somewhere though, this could actually be something.

[Rock Lee]

Mind explaining your sideboard? Thragtusk and Obstinate Baloth seem like they are taking up space for sideboard cards that can be used against decks we actually fear (combo)

Revoker mainboard seems interesting, however I feel like this is going to end up the way Deathrite Shaman did last year with it playing into the opposing strategy too well. I will try both Revokers and Flusterstorms mainboard somewhere though, this could actually be something.

I thought specifically of the DRS builds of past when I was debating Revokers main, and there are a few points to be made about that, and dovetails into why there are 4 dedicated discard/midrange hate cards side.

DRS died to not only removal/burn, but also opposing DRS, Liliana, Jace. Revoker protects itself against DRS, Liliana, Jace. Revoker is relatively dead though game 2-3 when they're bringing in thoughtseizes, but you can rope-a-dope them by making them keep in -1/-1 or 2 dmg hate. Also with multiple Obstinate Baloths (and I'm debating going -2 Thragtusk 2+ baloths), you can set up automatic/forced free baloths with hymn/thoughtseize. Thus Baloth directly fights their added discard and "best" plays of hymn chaining and heavy wasting/liliana. Baloth also requires a double block or a big goyf to take out for them, and often can alphastrike a lilly, worst case allow you to stablize in multiple forms.

I also bring in the baloth versus anything pressuring my mana or life total, which is many decks. It is my easy-sub for x4 revoker.



With x5 cards in the side for midrange/discard/aggro, that being baloth and 4th Show and Tell, you still have 10 slots for combo. I am testing a varied array of options, but those 10 cards are the best spot to focus on for combo hate, keeping in mind you have x4 revokers main. With only ~30 matchups under my belt of testing with this new build, I am REALLY liking MD revokers.


Regarding the other cards in the SB, I was just pinpointing the three possible areas that can see fast combo pop out. Reanimator, Painter/PoP/Blood Moon, and an all-encompassing counter in Swan song that lets you go upto 11 cards vs Sneaky Show. Venser also can come in vs many matchups so it is a cover-all. This gives only 10 cards vs combo not including crop rotation, which is the lightest I've ever gone, so I could see subbing in 2 more straight-storm fighting cards. I never trust surgical vs storm to get the job done.

[MGB]

How did Eldrazi do at the BoM Qualifier tournament, Rock?

[Rock Lee]

How did Eldrazi do at the BoM Qualifier tournament, Rock?

The deck did great. I decided to punt my round 1 and 2 because I'm a bad player.

Got to the finals of the 6 round side event though and then lost to miracles of all things. It was a weird day.

[Mockingbird]

The deck did great. I decided to punt my round 1 and 2 because I'm a bad player.

Huh?

Got to the finals of the 6 round side event though and then lost to miracles of all things. It was a weird day.

That may be an attrition thing. I generally go for Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or Stroke of Genius because I feel that it's a race to beat their Entreat the Angels, and since they're digging and manipulating, I need to follow suit only bigger. Or if I'm playing MUD-Post, I stick a Ratchet Bomb and tell them I have all day.

Also, you're not a terrible player. I'm reconsidering Karn Liberated for my sideboard since he's a beast against control. While he comes across as win more, with BUG, I want to test the removal/distraction from my face factor.

[Davek]

I really appreciate the last builds purposed, because yesterday i felt again we need to be better prepared to face heavy discard. I ended 5th in a 50-or so ppl tournament, went 4-1-1 in swiss losing the first round to BUG delver (with stifles, that i admit i wasn't expecting from that deck) then beating merfolks, ANT, death'n taxes, unintencionally drawn with enchantress, then beating another death'n taxes. Lost in quarterfinals to jund. I'll definitely test revokers MD to leave more space to answer heavy discard starts, since all my losses came from that. If it weren't so narrow, i'd consider Divert too.

[Rock Lee]

I really appreciate the last builds purposed, because yesterday i felt again we need to be better prepared to face heavy discard. I ended 5th in a 50-or so ppl tournament, went 4-1-1 in swiss losing the first round to BUG delver (with stifles, that i admit i wasn't expecting from that deck) then beating merfolks, ANT, death'n taxes, unintencionally drawn with enchantress, then beating another death'n taxes. Lost in quarterfinals to jund. I'll definitely test revokers MD to leave more space to answer heavy discard starts, since all my losses came from that. If it weren't so narrow, i'd consider Divert too.

I strongly suggest x4 Baloths. In testing it is showing to be extremely brutal. I've had amazing brainstorm hands where I brainstorm in resp to a thoughtseize and they see only baloths, forcing one into play, and then hold back on hymning me or +'ing Lilly. Card is grossly amazing.

[sauce]

baloth seems uncastable considering how difficult it is to get double green in this deck.

[Rock Lee]

baloth seems uncastable considering how difficult it is to get double green in this deck.

and yet again you are either trolling hard, or completely miss the point of running him.

[sauce]

and yet again you are either trolling hard, or completely miss the point of running him.

maybe you live in some magical xmas land where you brainstorm in response to thoughtseize and you only have baloths in your hand or you get to play vs liliana/hymn decks every round. besides that it seems highly unplayable.