All B/R update speculation.

[Technics]

@Technics: Flash was banned because it allowed for a ridiculous number of early kills with a high consistency and loads of protection.
Time Vault + Voltaic Key is a 2-card 4 mana "I win" combo, not because of oracle/printed text semantics.

I wasn't saying Flash or Vault should be in the format, just that the reasoning is funny. Why ban flash over Protean Hulk? Vault is broken with Key DUE to errata (power level being removed). The point is that Wizards defines banning something differently for every card ever banned in Legacy. There is no TRUE "This is why we ban a card" criteria.

[Dzra]

Sooooooooooooooo you're basically just going to abdicate this point then I guess?

Death and Taxes, Jund, Imperial Painter, and Elves are all pretty successful decks that have little* to do with preying on Brainstorm.

*The best you could offer is a case that Death and Taxes operates by constricting mana, which naturally makes casting multiple cheap spells and cantrips per turn much worse, or that Imperial Painter preys on the color Blue and most Blue decks run Brainstorm. I can't think of any reasonable cases where Elves or Jund are preying on Brainstorm though.

Brainstorm is like a pariah; people see it in a lot of decks and assume that this entails it to be a problem. The problem is twofold, stupid cards like TNN and other colors not having enough ways to manipulate their card quality. It's easy to see that Brainstorm isn't a problem because of the lack of penetration by Brainstorm-hating cards.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Death and Taxes, Jund, Imperial Painter, and Elves are all pretty successful decks that have little* to do with preying on Brainstorm.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just claim that the deck which runs maindeck Red Elemental Blast DOESN'T prey on Brainstorm decks?

[PirateKing]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just claim that the deck which runs maindeck Red Elemental Blast DOESN'T prey on Brainstorm decks?

Well he said Brainstorm, not Brainstorm decks, there might be some differences. Playing Reanimator, we run 4x Brainstorm, and while getting a Brainstorm hit with REB is annoying, it isn't really our first or second concern. And I wouldn't really put Reanimator in a group called "Brainstorm Decks" either. Run to gain consistency, but not playing center to the deck's main goals.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Well he said Brainstorm, not Brainstorm decks, there might be some differences. Playing Reanimator, we run 4x Brainstorm, and while getting a Brainstorm hit with REB is annoying, it isn't really our first or second concern. And I wouldn't really put Reanimator in a group called "Brainstorm Decks" either. Run to gain consistency, but not playing center to the deck's main goals.

Can any deck really be assumed to be the predator of a single card? Assuming no (because that idea is absurd) we'll assume he meant Brainstorm decks. Claiming that Imperial Painter is not a predator of "Brainstorm decks" is patently ridiculous. We could easily make an argument for DnT and Jund being Brainstorm deck "predators" as well, so I don't even see the point of his post in the first place.

[PirateKing]

Can any deck really be assumed to be the predator of a single card? Assuming no (because that idea is absurd) we'll assume he meant Brainstorm decks. Claiming that Imperial Painter is not a predator of "Brainstorm decks" is patently ridiculous. We could easily make an argument for DnT and Jund being Brainstorm deck "predators" as well, so I don't even see the point of his post in the first place.

Well this is the internet, making arguments is what easy is. But my experience has been that the main deck REB's are well balanced between offense and defense. Painters preys on blue as much as it gets bothered by having its key spells countered. And so I wouldn't really say a deck built to defend itself in a specific environment particularly predatory. A better example would be Stifle used in the tempo shell. It's possible to use the card defensively, save yourself from that lethal storm trigger, but that's a corner case. It's main use is offensive and aggressive. I don't see REB used in the same capacity.

[Dzra]

Can any deck really be assumed to be the predator of a single card? Assuming no (because that idea is absurd) we'll assume he meant Brainstorm decks. Claiming that Imperial Painter is not a predator of "Brainstorm decks" is patently ridiculous. We could easily make an argument for DnT and Jund being Brainstorm deck "predators" as well, so I don't even see the point of his post in the first place.

No one has to devote SB slots to beating Brainstorm. No one has to design their deck while keeping opposing Brainstorms in mind. No one has ever lost a game of Magic because they weren't prepared to face Brainstorm. Brainstorm isn't Mental Misstep; it isn't Survival of the Fittest; it isn't Flash. I mean, it's not even Show and Tell or True-Name Nemesis.

Imperial Painter is a deck that abuses the fact that most of the format is Blue and full of nonbasics. UB Tezz is a deck that abuses the fact that most of the format plays weak but efficient 1-drops. Death and Taxes is a deck that abuses the fact that most of the format likes to cast the cards in their hand. These decks do not prey on Brainstorm; they prey on various aspects of Legacy the format.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

There is no TRUE "This is why we ban a card" criteria.

Becasue cards are different?
There's no true flavoring, becasue sometimes you throw dried garlic into your dish, while other times it's vanilla.

[Gheizen64]

No one has to devote SB slots to beating Ancestral Recall. No one has to design their deck while keeping opposing Ancestral Recalls in mind. No one has ever lost a game of Magic because they weren't prepared to face Ancestral Recall. Ancestral Recall isn't Mental Misstep; it isn't Survival of the Fittest; it isn't Flash. I mean, it's not even Show and Tell or True-Name Nemesis.

Imperial Painter is a deck that abuses the fact that most of the format is Blue and full of nonbasics. UB Tezz is a deck that abuses the fact that most of the format plays weak but efficient 1-drops. Death and Taxes is a deck that abuses the fact that most of the format likes to cast the cards in their hand. These decks do not prey on Brainstorm; they prey on various aspects of Legacy the format.

Fixed

[Dice_Box]

Fixed

You need to play more Vintage, and stop being and ass.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You need to play more Vintage, and stop being and ass.

Some people can't handle the truth.

The position that a deck with maindeck REBs doesn't take advantage of the prevalence of Brainstorm decks is pretty laughable on its face.

[Gheizen64]

You need to play more Vintage, and stop being and ass.

I can do that with a lot of other cards like Bargain, Will, or Black lotus. Saying a card "doesn't win" is the stupidest argument ever and i'm pissed that everytime it's brought up in the case of brainstorm but conveniently forgot for every other card in existence. Talk about intellectual prostitution.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

For that matter, I'm not sure who ever devoted sideboard slots to beating Mental Misstep.

[Darkenslight]

For that matter, I'm not sure who ever devoted sideboard slots to beating Mental Misstep.

Why bother, when you could play the Boogieman to stop it? Having said that, bringing in Nix to stop those shenanigans was a weirdly hilarious thing to do.

[Dice_Box]

Some people can't handle the truth.

The position that a deck with maindeck REBs doesn't take advantage of the prevalence of Brainstorm decks is pretty laughable on its face.

I play that deck a lot, I almost never counter Brainstorm. Save for when I am against Miracles or the guys hand is nearly empty. I normally save the blasts for protection of my combo or locks.

The Painter deck is a anti Blue, Prison deck that wins though bloodmoon locks and Bridge. It just happens to have a combo finish. If Painter could not paint the town blue, you can bet the deck would not run so many blasts.

It's not because of Brainstorm that Painter exists, but blue overall. Yes Brainstorm makes itself felt in blue decks, but if the meta was the same with only Brainstorm removed, Painter would be just as effective.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I play that deck a lot, I almost never counter Brainstorm. Save for when I am against Miracles or the guys hand is nearly empty. I normally save the blasts for protection of my combo or locks.

The Painter deck is a anti Blue, Prison deck that wins though bloodmoon locks and Bridge. It just happens to have a combo finish. If Painter could not paint the town blue, you can bet the deck would not run so many blasts.

It's not because of Brainstorm that Painter exists, but blue overall. Yes Brainstorm makes itself felt in blue decks, but if the meta was the same with only Brainstorm removed, Painter would be just as effective.

"If the meta was the same with only Brainstorm removed" is a proposition that makes no sense on its face.

Although you probably should consider countering Brainstorm sometimes.

[Dice_Box]

Oh in the right situations I will look at countering it, but the deck works mostly on the lock plan. I would rather protect and land Jaya then stop you drawing 3.

Also the comment makes sense. If the format was the same blue saturated situation minus that one card, it would still be a powerful choice.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Brainstorm is, alongside Force of Will but somewhat more importantly, at the core of the blue package that is dominant in the metagame. Maindeck REB would be drastically worse if it were gone, for reasons far beyond it simply being a potential target.

[clavio]

I thought REB was there to counter TNN more than anything

[DragoFireheart]

I thought REB was there to counter TNN more than anything

It causes more butthurt to claim that Brainstorm is the reason.

Blaming TNN is boring and uninspired.