All B/R update speculation.

[HammafistRoob]

Because Burn and Goblins don't play reactive magic?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'm surprised that Painter's Blasts deserve such a long discussion. Is it good to counter cantrips? Yes, sometimes it is. Is the primary use of the 6-8 REBs to stop countermagic? Yes. Do they work as one mana Vindicate once Painter is in play? Yes. Would Painter.dec pack those Blasts even if BS gets banned, Ponder moves up in the food chain and some tertiary cantrip (Portent, See Beyond) enters the format? Yes, of course. Is Blue Painter silly idea? Yes, it is, search results for Bed Decks Paitner.

On Frantic Search: I don't think it's a dangerous card. It may work in Madness, moving this deck to a solid Tier 2.5 status. Ichorid won't use it for obvious reasons, the in its manacost. It'll be very fine in High Tide and mediocre in some SnT versions. Reanimator might use it, otoh, I don't see many Intuitions packed in those decks, so maybe they'd use what.. one FS?
I believe it's safe to unban.

Also, reading the discussion between JPoJohnson and [SLAYER]chaos reminds me of times when georgjorge, Green One and two other guys had a picture of Daze as their avatar. That was funny...

[Admiral_Arzar]

Reanimator will not use Frantic Search, as the deck plays 17 lands and wants to consistently go off on turn 1 or 2. If you are waiting until you have three mana, why aren't you just playing Sneaky Show? Speed is the entire reason you play a more fragile (graveyard hate) deck over the more resilient one. High Tide is likely the only deck it would see serious play in, as basically any Madness or Dredge variant would prefer Careful Study (only one mana) anyways. Frantic Search is completely safe unless you have an irrational hate of High Tide decks (I know a few people...).

[testing32]

Brainstorm is a much better card than Frantic Search and it's legal. I don't see why it couldn't come off the ban list.

[Megadeus]

Name a deck that does not run painter that decides to maindeck 6 REB's. If the card is so good on its own against 75% of the format then why is burn not running 6, Goblins not running 6? If it's so good why is the card only ever consistently main in one deck? Can't be Painter. No that makes no sense at all.

Also of course you don't see Blue blasts in Blue painter. What on earth is blue always able to do? Oh that's right, use a bevy of better cards to counter and control shit.

Well the miracles deck that top 2'd the GP actually ran 1 or 2 main board red blasts. And you want to know why he got away with it? Because not only is blue so ridiculously heavily played, but he even had this powerful card called brainstorm to shuffle back his dead blasts.

[rufus]

...

I believe [Frantic Search is] safe to unban.

Count me as unconvinced that it's safe with high tide decks. There are also more things to consider: Frantic Search is fundamentally potent when sharing a deck with spell recursion effects like Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains and has positive interaction with sol lands.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Would reanimator really want this more than Careful Study though?

No.

Fear of High Tide is why it's banned

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Count me as unconvinced that it's safe with high tide decks. There are also more things to consider: Frantic Search is fundamentally potent when sharing a deck with spell recursion effects like Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains and has positive interaction with sol lands.

Wait, what I meant is that FS is definitely powerful spell, but not really broken. I think that it won't warp meta and it doesn't have silly enough effect (Mind Twist, Hermit Druid) t owarrant a ban. But I may be wrong, of course. I think they should give the card a chance. After all theymay ban it again.

[TsumiBand]

Count me as unconvinced that it's safe with high tide decks. There are also more things to consider: Frantic Search is fundamentally potent when sharing a deck with spell recursion effects like Past in Flames or Ill-Gotten Gains and has positive interaction with sol lands.

Yes, any card that lets you draw cards as well as untap is just begging for a Storm-based deck to adopt it. I think it is a really neat effect but I also think it is dangerous as hell.

[Dice_Box]

Not going to get into a cards safety, but the fear of High Tide is silly. This is a format where Brand is played for 3 mana, Blue is drawing it's whole deck in a turn and where Storm is quite able to kill you before you get to play anything meaningful. The fear of a deck that normally wins turn 4 being a little faster I think is funny.

Now that's not to say the card is not a danger in other decks, but High Tide is really the lest of this formats issues.

[clavio]

Time Spiral didn't push High Tide over the top. I doubt frantic search will either.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Time Spiral didn't push High Tide over the top. I doubt frantic search will either.

The biggest reason I would like Frantic Search is it might make instant-speed High Tide combo halfway playable. I would love to sling some Resets in response to things.

[clavio]

The biggest reason I would like Frantic Search is it might make instant-speed High Tide combo halfway playable. I would love to sling some Resets in response to things.

Absolutely. I'd love to see it unbanned. I don't know why it gets so little mention in this thread.

[Lord Seth]

You don't see Blue Painter for a couple reasons. Firstly, Blue doesn't have access to 8 Blood Moons. It should be obvious why that card is good. Next off, even without Painter on the field, REB counters things that are relevant to combo decks... like counter spells. BEB counters what? Lightening Bolt? Opposing Blood Moons maybe?

And as far as countering cantrips, sometimes it is fine but they are usually more corner cases. For example, if someone Brainstorms with a fetch out and your soft counters are likely to lose value then sure. I wouldn't be too aggressively countering cantrips from just any combo deck though. Saving soft counters for High Tide's combo turn is great, same with TES/ANT. Sneak and Show probably outpaces soft counters faster than most combo decks, so it might be alright to dump them at some point, but I'm still not a fan in most cases.

As someone who played High Tide for quite a while, I'm going to disagree. If you just save your counters for High Tide's combo turn, that gives them a greater opportunity to get cards to beat those on their combo turn.

If you have the opportunity, I think it's almost always worth it to counter their turn 1 cantrip. Not only does it stall them a little, sometimes they'll keep hands that are awful if the opponent decides to counter their cantrip (e.g. 1-land hand with one cantrip) because they know that almost no one ever counters the cantrip.

I wouldn't counter every cantrip, but when it looks like they might get a real usage out of it--e.g. that turn 1 cantrip I mentioned, or them casting Brainstorm with a fetchland in play--it's very frequently worth it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you can Daze or Spell Pierce a cantrip against High Tide you definitely do. Force you save for something more important. REB you should use on a Brainstorm or Merchant Scroll.

I am leery about Frantic Search because it would in fact make High Tide really strong, while allowing them to probably up their counterspell suite in the maindeck. And again, it's not strengthening the aspect of the meta that needs strengthening.

If I were going to unban any blue card, it'd be at gunpoint probably and then it would be Mana Drain.

[JPoJohnson]

As someone who played High Tide for quite a while, I'm going to disagree. If you just save your counters for High Tide's combo turn, that gives them a greater opportunity to get cards to beat those on their combo turn.

If you have the opportunity, I think it's almost always worth it to counter their turn 1 cantrip. Not only does it stall them a little, sometimes they'll keep hands that are awful if the opponent decides to counter their cantrip (e.g. 1-land hand with one cantrip) because they know that almost no one ever counters the cantrip.

I wouldn't counter every cantrip, but when it looks like they might get a real usage out of it--e.g. that turn 1 cantrip I mentioned, or them casting Brainstorm with a fetchland in play--it's very frequently worth it.

Nobody is saying that High Tide is a bad deck, it's definitely powerful and Feline continues to prove that point (going 9th recently at the SCG event).

I just don't feel like unbanning the card will warp the meta or make an all powerful high tide or storm deck. Storm decks (TES primarily) often go off with no lands in play, and I can't see ANT wanting to play that card. What would they take out?

I personally think that a smaller ban list is a better ban list. If the card isn't broken and doesn't warp the meta (and doesn't include ante), then I see no reason for it to be on there.

That and I would love to play Solidarity with a little more power and consistency :p

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Nobody is saying that High Tide is a bad deck, it's definitely powerful and Feline continues to prove that point (going 9th recently at the SCG event).

I just don't feel like unbanning the card will warp the meta or make an all powerful high tide or storm deck. Storm decks (TES primarily) often go off with no lands in play, and I can't see ANT wanting to play that card. What would they take out?

I personally think that a smaller ban list is a better ban list. If the card isn't broken and doesn't warp the meta (and doesn't include ante), then I see no reason for it to be on there.

That and I would love to play Solidarity with a little more power and consistency :p

The banned list isn't and shouldn't be a goal into itself, it should be a method of managing the format to make it more fun and interesting.

[JPoJohnson]

The banned list isn't and shouldn't be a goal into itself, it should be a method of managing the format to make it more fun and interesting.

And if something, such as I believe Frantic Search qualifies as, seems to only be keeping somewhat rogue decks (High Tide variants, other potential control-ish combo decks) down slightly I see no need to keep it on the ban list. It won't power up any top tier decks presently, it doesn't combo well with DTB combo decks that are presently in existence, and would bring variety to the format (of course, this is all personal belief).

Sounds like a positive unbanning choice to me.

[Phoenix Ignition]

The banned list isn't and shouldn't be a goal into itself, it should be a method of managing the format to make it more fun and interesting.

I don't mean this as an insult (like 90% of the people on this site would) but you should come play modern. Check my post history, it's pretty much all I play now, and the B&R list there is actually pretty damn good. They do change the format depending on what seems OP and even though they flub it once in a while (like banning GSZ and Wild Nacatl in the same round), overall it seems to be getting better and better.

And check this out, blue isn't the end all be all of the format.

[TsumiBand]

It doesn't have to be High Tide necessarily, just any deck that has a propensity for digging through cards, throwing them in the bin, and being totally okay with untapping three land. Which is probably um… a lot of decks. O_o

On its face it is aimed right at Storm combo, whatever that may be, but Reanimator would probably enjoy it as well. I just want Madness to be a thing though. I would Circular the shit out some Logic with Frantic Search, it'd be sweeeeet