Originally Posted by Grand Superior
Maybe I'm on my own here, but I usually find the Liliana is weak vs. Miracles. Miracles can play off of the top of their deck, so Liliana's +1 usually hurts us more (makes us discard counterspells). I guess it depends if Liliana hits early or later. In my experience, by the time she hits the board, they are using top to play off the top of their deck and the +1 isn't really good.
It's tough to say without seeing your whole list. Liliana is key in this match-up. If you can stick Liliana and keep her in play for two turns, it's almost always GG. Patriot is pretty threat-light (4 Delvers, 2-4 TNN, and Batterskull - SFM isn't a traditional threat). Therefore, if you can make Patriot sacrifice one or two threats, it is very unlikely that they will recover. Just watch out for Spell Pierce and Lightning Bolt.
Exallium's advice is solid.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I feel like Liliana can get you ahead in Miracles. I find what's really important is to assess your opponent's game plan (Helm combo or Entreat) and then play to it. I think your most key cards here are things like spell pierce and vendilion clique, as well as of course, abrupt decay. Clique can shut down a miracles card before he even has a chance to play it, and decay can keep him off Counter top lock, off RIP, and can take out tops if you wait for the activation. Spell pierce also counters almost every spell in their deck, sometimes everything, depending on the build (if it's creatureless). They're casting a lot of large spells, so that 2 mana tax can really hurt them when it counts.
That being said, I'm happy I have 3 lili's available for this matchup. If you can keep them off top, you've got a good chance of winning a topdeck war, as long as you're properly suited against their locks.
One of the biggest things here, is don't remove too many of your threats. They play planeswalkers, enchantments, sorcerys, and instants, all which can help quickly make goyf big and strong in a hurry. Tombstalker is basically dead and should come out for better reactive spells and removal.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
I'll post my whole list.(it's a pretty stock list) But the deck feels so powerful. Just need more practice side boarding.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay(might go to 4, cutting either a liliana, or library)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
SB:
3 Disfigure
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Life from the Loam
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Krosan Grip
My List is very close to this, but I do not run Library in my 75, I run the 4th decay instead. I also run one extra fetch over the 4th underground sea. My board is different as well:
2 Disfigure
2 Cage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Play tested a lot vs Miracles yesterday and today, and I have a rather depressing 6-9 result to show for it. I think I might be doing something wrong, but it's always the same scenario:
- I come out of the gates strong with a Delver flying in for 6-9 damage (I even use Brainstorm to flip these regularly, something I almost never do vs other decks)
- He finds Plow or Terminus.
- I deploy a new Goyf, Delver or TNN/Tombstalker.
- Cue infinite Plows, Termini, Snappys etc.
- He's on like 5 with 8 basic lands in play, casts Jace.
- I lose.
My boarding
-4 Daze
-4 Hymn (this is probably incorrect, but it seems to me like Miracles is too good at playing from the top.)
+3 Spell Pierce
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Creeping Tar Pit
Any and all help in this matchup is much appreciated!
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My main deck is a little different because I run TNN over Tombstalker. I also run a 3rd TNN in the board. Vs. Miracles or Patriot, I side out 'Goyf and I rely on TNN, Delver, and DRS to get the job done.
I understand what people are saying about not diluting threats. Goyf can be a huge beater and can close out games rather quickly. However, Goyf, DRS, and Tombstalker (for those who run it), make RiP too powerful, imo. Therefore, I decrease my dependence upon the graveyard by removing 'Goyf and electing not to run Tombstalker.
You definitely need to leave Hymn in - the major reason being that you can cast it early on and hit lands. This game is a race and if Miracles can make it to the mid-game, every turn thereafter, the tides are shifting in their favor. You really need to win the game by turn 8-9 or else it is going to get progressively more difficult.
The Miracles/Team America match up is difficult for Team America (I'd say 45/55 against us). Nitewolf ran Sinkhole out of the board to combat Miracles. Stifle is great vs. Miracles, but current TA lists don't run it.
The secret to our success is to 1) prevent Miracle's mana development (Hymn to Tourach is our best card for this, other than Liliana ultimate); and 2) Deploy threats intelligently. Don't be afraid to ping with a DRS for 1 a turn until you force them to handle it. Generally, 1 threat at a time is correct to diminish the effectiveness of Terminus and Supreme Verdict.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I like hymn in this matchup. It hits basic lands, it's a 2 for 1, and it gets all the more valuable if he has a rip in play. Not to mention, you're going to see a good amount of mana, given you're playing a control deck. Not to mention, against Miracles, needle + discard is amazing, because if you get them topdecking, they can't do so efficiently.
Miracles is such a good deck because it can generally play to any other deck's weaknesses, as long as the pilot is competent and understands how your deck works.
As for what you're bringing in... more Golgari Charm. Hits Moat, Humility, RIP, Counterbalance, and any other enchantment you need it to hit. I generally like to save it for the first two, because they are out of the range of Abrupt Decay. Maybe pull out Tombstalkers? RIP kind of shuts that line of play down. Goyfs are far easier to recover, size-wise, and generally he's not going to have the blockers to deal with them.
EDIT: Intelligent deployment, as Water_Wizard says, kind of nails this matchup on the head. Miracles is a very unforgiving deck, and you need to make sure you think about every card you're utilizing. Know their wincons, know what to keep them off, don't waste your clique, know how it interacts with miracle trigger, keep soft pressure, but keep pressure. As long as you plan your moves and sus out what you're up against, you can def increase your odds of coming out on top.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
It's not a great match-up but I certainly feel fine. You just want a few big creatures and also avoid overcommitting. I would side out 2 drs, 4 daze and a bayou for pierce/clique/library/grip/charm. You need to be ready to play the long game as they have a ton of things to get through. I still really like hymn as it buys a ton of time versus jace.
Depending on the boarding strategy of the Miracles player.
Some Miracle players (Phillip Schönegger the GP Paris Top 8er) for example boards out all Balance & doesnt board in RIP to blank AD completly! So in such a scenario it would be right to board out all 4 AD and bring Krosan Grip against Top. I would also not board out all 4 Hymn, because they play a lot of removal & Counterspells which Hymn can catch first and after that landing your creatures. ..
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Currently playingEldrazi
This is why you should ALWAYS go back to the board G3 ;)
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Thanks guys, it seems the biggest mistake I did was siding out Hymn.
I generally only played 1 threat at a time, the only time I deployed more than one was late game, after a Terminus or two, and if it put him on a one-turn clock instead of two.
I run TNN MD right now, so no Charms in the side.
Edit: my testing partner was running Einherjer's GP Paris list, with this board plan:
And I suspected this, but didn't dare to side out any Decays, for fear of RiPs. The only thing they did in post-board games (which were awful, I won the pre-board games 4-2, and then it went very downhill) was killing random Snapcasters trying to block Goyf.
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Allow me to drop a few words on your game against Miracles?
Thanks.
1) Liliana of the Veil: Lilly never wins you games against Miracles. But, and this is the important part: It interferes with our gameplan. So it is a very potent card for disruption Miracles, yet you shouldnt rely too heavily on it. Be sure you know when to +1 her. Lilliana on an empty board isn't where you want to be. You want her to follow up a threat of yours. When you deploy it on an empty board Miracles will just play from its top3 and outclass you in a certain time.
2) The most efficient hatecards are Enchantments/Artifacts. Make sure to pack some of those, if you plan on having an even-MU against Miracles. Choose from Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle, Null Rod and Winter Orb. It's been quite a time since I last played TA - so I am not too sure which one is ideal for an open metagame - but make sure to have some of those, Lilly + creatures won't cut it.
3) Miracle can go many direction when approaching this MU, against some ways Charm+Decay are gamebreaking, wherewas they are worthless cards against my boardingplan. So make sure to know what plan your opponent is on. Signs that your opponent is on the plan where you want Charm/Decay are MB cards like: E-Tutor, D-Sphere, Stoneforge Mystic....
4) Don't board out FoW. I see most here agree on this but some still do this. Just don't.
5) Don't overcommit on the board when you don't have to. But make sure to know when it's time to throw everything you have onto the board. I often see people missing this oppurtunity, cause theyve been told to play 1 creature only.
6) Don't FoW the removal on your creatures - keep it for Miracles gamewinners.
Okay so those were just a few points, many may have been obvious and stuff- but I hope some found it helpful. I'll cover this (and the other important) MUs in my next article in depth - though from a different angle - but it might still be interesting.
Greetings
Thanks, Einherjer! The only rule I broke from that list was FoWing StP, which I felt was justified in some circumstances, like when it's my last threat and I don't have any cantrips on hand, for example.
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You're welcome!
And yes, every rule has its exceptions. Though I'd still rather wait for more Cantrips/Creatures than lose to the Jace/Entreat Miracle has been floating all day.
Greetings
Sure, that's also quite true. I guess it's difficult to take these situations out of context, but when it came up, a couple of times in our 15 games, I judged that I wanted to be the aggressor and not get stuck in top deck mode vs the top "top deck" deck.
My complete side, by the way: (MD is bog BUG standard with Lilly, Library and 2 TNN over Tombstalker)
3 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
1 Grafdiffer's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Creeping Tar Pit
I am thinking:
-4 Daze
-1 Decay
-1 ? (DRS?)
+3 Spell Pierce, Clique, Needle, Tar Pit
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The part with Lili is true, I played Miracles in the past too and everytime I faced Lili (1 time BGW NicFit & BUG Control & TA) I won because I smashed Entreat 1 Turn before the finisher Eot with Top or I could easily rebuild my board because of Top/Jace etc...She's good in combination with pressure or other hate cards but not a autolose on a empty board.
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Thanks for the help everyone! I think I am going to try moving my 2nd liliana from the main, to the board, so I can put the 4th abrupt decay in the main. Then cut both Thoughtseize, and place the lily and a null rod in their place.
What about Extirpate agains Miracles? It's been a while since I don't play this deck, but I remembered some games where taking StP made my life much easier. They need to find Terminus/Supreme Veredict or die basically. Also is very good if you are bringing Creeping Tar Pit against them.
Just my 2 cents.
Thank you miracles players! It's great to see cross-communication like this. It can help make us all better players.
Personally, I'm going to be on the prowl for a Null Rod to toss into my "don't trade stuff from here" binder, so I can try working it into my board. Great against stoneforge and counter-top based decks, great against MUD, and just shuts down Affinity (Artifact lands FTL)
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Extripate is a good card, and has a lot of use in a bunch of different matchups, albeit a turn slower than Surgical Extraction (but almost uncounterable). Given our mana base is built to curve off at 3/4 instead of 2 like RUG delver (and, you know, access to black mana), extripate is easier for us to cast without it getting in the way of whatever else we want to do that turn.
However, between Extirpate and Surgical Extraction, I'll take SE every time. Why? Because it can catch people off-guard. It's harder for people to play around if you don't have land up, and can still cast into it. Also, turn zero plays. Imagine situations like this:
You're playing against sneak and show. They're on the play. You have FOW, Daze, and SE in hand. They go petal -> sol land -> Show and Tell. You fow the Show and Tell, pitching daze, and, at the end of the turn, SE their show and tell. You've now taken them off an entire line of play, before dropping a land. This isn't magical christmas land, you just managed to have FOW and SE and a blue card.
Similarly, against Reanimator, with just an SE. T1 USea, Petal -> Entomb for <Insert big thing here> -> Reanimate. You SE in response and call it a day (pending no countermagic backup).
So... I guess what I'm trying to say here is that Extirpate is harder to counter, but easier to play around, while SE is easier to counter, but harder to play around, and can sometimes prevent you from just losing on turn zero to some nut draw.
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All that said and done, I've been packing things more along the lines of Cage and Nihil Spellbomb. I find with our available countermagic suit, we are fairly resilient to these types of shenanigans, and can deal with them in full when necessary (e.g. holding off mr. reanimator with a force and following up with a cage or spellbomb)
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
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