All B/R update speculation.

[btm10]

The banned list isn't and shouldn't be a goal into itself, it should be a method of managing the format to make it more fun and interesting.

Using B/R list length as an evaluation parameter is useful because it guards against inertia ("X is restricted because it was broken at one time and the format is currently healthy without it..."), which leads to a stagnant format. When a meta is healthy (and clearly the current health of the meta is up for debate), that's the ideal time to be talking about unbannings to shake it up, and the cards unlikely to have an impact (Mind Twist, Frantic Search) are the ideal place to start.

On the matter of Frantic Search specificially, without a natural experiment (e.g., it being unrestricted in Vintage or reprinted in a Modern-legal set), we're left with speculative arguments as to whether or not Frantic Search safe. And since the Frantic Search was really the accomplice of Tolarian Academy, the only argument for leaving it banned is fear that it will power up an existing or new combo deck, and High Tide is the only clear fit for it in Legacy. I don't think that having FS will push it over the edge into "broken" territory, since it's currently a tier 2 deck and is incredibly slow by the standards of combo. If it becomes tier 1, I have no idea what it would be displacing, so the number of viable decks would grow.

[trollking21]

On the matter of Frantic Search specificially, without a natural experiment (e.g., it being unrestricted in Vintage or reprinted in a Modern-legal set), we're left with speculative arguments as to whether or not Frantic Search safe. And since the Frantic Search was really the accomplice of Tolarian Academy, the only argument for leaving it banned is fear that it will power up an existing or new combo deck, and High Tide is the only clear fit for it in Legacy. I don't think that having FS will push it over the edge into "broken" territory, since it's currently a tier 2 deck and is incredibly slow by the standards of combo. If it becomes tier 1, I have no idea what it would be displacing, so the number of viable decks would grow.

I imagine a new shell for reanimator would use and storm would probably use it. Frantic search past in flames, frantic search seems good. It might make Ad nasueam a little painful though if you have to use it.

[JPoJohnson]

It doesn't have to be High Tide necessarily, just any deck that has a propensity for digging through cards, throwing them in the bin, and being totally okay with untapping three land. Which is probably um… a lot of decks. O_o

On its face it is aimed right at Storm combo, whatever that may be, but Reanimator would probably enjoy it as well. I just want Madness to be a thing though. I would Circular the shit out some Logic with Frantic Search, it'd be sweeeeet

I think some variants of reanimator would definitely enjoy it, but I can also see what people say with their land density being so low and typically aiming at being explosive VS resilient (although this may bring about a new type of reanimator that's a little more control).

And TsumiBand, I completely agree. Any deck that likes to do that. Right now the amount of decks that can use Frantic Search is small. They don't dominate every tournament they go in. They have sporadic showings. And that's my point. I feel like its a safe unban. A powerful card, don't get me wrong, but a safe card to unban.

[Psyqo]

I see 2 sides regarding Frantic Search. I agree that it may be a safe unban, but at the same time I don't want to keep adding more powerful blue stuff to Legacy.

I get that blue is the best color, I really do, and I fell in love with the format in spite of that 4-5 years ago. However, I find myself gravitating to Modern more and more since the colors really do feel balanced in that format.

Someone above me said it best.. that if Miracles can mainboard REBs/Pyroblasts to good use, then there seems to be a bit too much Blue running rampant. I would kill to have a time machine to take me 2-3 years back so I could run Goblins up against a deck that is bold enough to maindeck a seemingly narrow card like REB.

[Megadeus]

Frantic search in a blue elves build to untap a cradle seems suuhhweeet. Or UB Tez to untap a sol land or two

[clavio]

It doesn't have to be High Tide necessarily, just any deck that has a propensity for digging through cards, throwing them in the bin, and being totally okay with untapping three land. Which is probably um… a lot of decks. O_o

Would that really make those decks that much better? Keep in mind you need three lands in play to get full value out of frantic search.

[TsumiBand]

Would that really make those decks that much better? Keep in mind you need three lands in play to get full value out of frantic search.

I think a lot of decks would be thrilled to improve their card quality 'for free', sure. Having two cards in hand, then choosing 2 from the best of 4, and then untapping for another potential effect seems very appealing.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Captain Hammer]

A mod should really update this thread with a new poll.

It's downright silly to have this poll up without having either Show and Tell or TNN up as options.

Would also be nice to have an analogous thread and poll discussing Legacy most unbannable card. Survival should win that.

[JPoJohnson]

It would be useful in Enchantress and Elves, both of which are strong but not dominating. I don't see it making either of those decks over the top (although for sure VERY powerful in them).

I can see it being played overall in:
Reanimator
High Ride Variants
UB Tezzerett
Sneak N' Show
Elves
Enchantress
Mono-U Control
Others?

I'm ok with these decks having that card. Wasteland is still very prevalent in the format and it helps against some of these decks attempting to abuse Frantic Search

[Dzra]

If you can Daze or Spell Pierce a cantrip against High Tide you definitely do. Force you save for something more important. REB you should use on a Brainstorm or Merchant Scroll.

I suppose this is off topic, but this is outstandingly bad advise. It doesn't matter if they can pay for the soft permission to resolve the High Tide because every Island that they tap on their combo turn denies them 2-3 mana. Using REB to counter a Brainstorm is also extremely wasteful. Countering a Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish can sometimes be good when you expect them to be searching for a Wipe Away (to remove CB, Ethersworn, Leyline, etc). Usually the best strategy is to fight over the High Tide with any soft counters and then let HT resolve so you have more mana to fight again over their big draw spells (Time Spiral, BSZ) with your Cliques and hard counters.

Oh, and I don't see too much harm in Frantic Search. A ponderous mono Blue combo deck with pretty good game against other combo decks seems fine. If it helps UB Tezz also then all the better.

[Barook]

A mod should really update this thread with a new poll.

It's downright silly to have this poll up without having either Show and Tell or TNN up as options.

Would also be nice to have an analogous thread and poll discussing Legacy most unbannable card. Survival should win that.

It was stated somewhere in the thread that the vote stays for historical reasons.

A new, seperate poll could be interesting, but I'm not sure if the mods would be too happy about it.

We already have a discussion for the unbanning of Survival - roughly 80% of the people who voted wanted it back.

[Megadeus]

I suppose this is off topic, but this is outstandingly bad advise. It doesn't matter if they can pay for the soft permission to resolve the High Tide because every Island that they tap on their combo turn denies them 2-3 mana. Using REB to counter a Brainstorm is also extremely wasteful. Countering a Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish can sometimes be good when you expect them to be searching for a Wipe Away (to remove CB, Ethersworn, Leyline, etc). Usually the best strategy is to fight over the High Tide with any soft counters and then let HT resolve so you have more mana to fight again over their big draw spells (Time Spiral, BSZ) with your Cliques and hard counters.

Oh, and I don't see too much harm in Frantic Search. A ponderous mono Blue combo deck with pretty good game against other combo decks seems fine. If it helps UB Tezz also then all the better.

It does filter for "free", but it is card disadvantage as well.

Here's a question, if it were something like a Phyrexian Mana Careful Study, would it see a lot of play and be broken? It isn't completely the same card, but it is a "free" loot 2. (yes I'm aware dredge would poop its pants with such a thing)

[The Doctor]

A mod should really update this thread with a new poll.

It's downright silly to have this poll up without having either Show and Tell or TNN up as options.

Would also be nice to have an analogous thread and poll discussing Legacy most unbannable card. Survival should win that.

This is repeated every few pages. The poll is a nice reminder to "sky is falling because of card X" people how much the format can change, and how cards that people may have once thought were oppressive are fine now. I think of it as a "chill the hell out" type of message.

[Barook]

It does filter for "free", but it is card disadvantage as well.

Here's a question, if it were something like a Phyrexian Mana Careful Study, would it see a lot of play and be broken? It isn't completely the same card, but it is a "free" loot 2. (yes I'm aware dredge would poop its pants with such a thing)

Not only Dredge, but Reanimator as well, since it makes T1 reanimation much more likely. Other decks care too much about the card diadvantage.

[Dice_Box]

I could see some of the non blue combo decks running it. I would put some in Painter.

[Megadeus]

Not only Dredge, but Reanimator as well, since it makes T1 reanimation much more likely. Other decks care too much about the card diadvantage.

Fair. I'm not advocating the unbanning of search, just wanted to do an exercise on whether or not an "improved" (in the sense that you dont need 3 mana in the first place) version of the card would theoretically be played.

[Dzra]

Fair. I'm not advocating the unbanning of search, just wanted to do an exercise on whether or not an "improved" (in the sense that you dont need 3 mana in the first place) version of the card would theoretically be played.

I think that a Phyrexian Careful Study would see play, but it would likely be mostly limited to decks that are already interested in Careful Study and Faithless Looting sorts of effects. I think the interesting part of Frantic Search isn't the filter for free part but the untap lands that might be tapping for multiple mana part. Still, Frantic Search has some very real drawbacks. It is only "free" if you have three land, which isn't simple for every combo deck, and it is card disadvantage... free filtering but still negative CA. I think the thing to ask is would my deck play a three mana card that reads "Untap three land, plus some upside."

[JPoJohnson]

I think that a Phyrexian Careful Study would see play, but it would likely be mostly limited to decks that are already interested in Careful Study and Faithless Looting sorts of effects. I think the interesting part of Frantic Search isn't the filter for free part but the untap lands that might be tapping for multiple mana part. Still, Frantic Search has some very real drawbacks. It is only "free" if you have three land, which isn't simple for every combo deck, and it is card disadvantage... free filtering but still negative CA. I think the thing to ask is would my deck play a three mana card that reads "Untap three land, plus some upside."

Exactly. I don't think there is a large amount of decks that would benefit so strongly from this card, but some that would benefit a bit from it.

[rufus]

Exactly. I don't think there is a large amount of decks that would benefit so strongly from this card, but some that would benefit a bit from it.

It only takes one deck.

[JPoJohnson]

It only takes one deck.

Well... that's obviously why I brought the card up. I don't see there being one dominating deck with this card. Do you have insight towards some specific deck that would be the one deck?