Well, I played horrendously in Atlanta yesterday, so no report from that. It does mean I have more time to get the Primer draft up in the next few days though!
BBD's deck is a lot of the old ThopterBalance stuff with a few Miracles pieces, not anything too crazy or new.
Thopters has definitely been around for a long while. It was used before Terminus came around, and stayed strong until Decay was printed. Now, I think it's actually a really good tool for the control mirror, as well as being very good against TNN. Moat and Humility are great against True Name. Is it better than Miracles itself? I'm not sure. I think it can be situationally better, but overall, not so much.Originally Posted by alphastryk
-Matt
I don't like Thopters. Between RiP and Decay it makes me sad.
BDD's one-of Humility is already good against TNN, he doesn't run Moat. Even if he has Tutor, it's very likely to just get Thopter and Sword going. As long as you gain 3 life per opponent's turn, TNN pretty much can be ignored, until they find a Sword or another TNN.
BDD even admitted in the video clip about how awkward his version can be at times: Blood Moon turns off Ruin, Thopter goes out for RiP.
Of all versions, the worst and most likely obsolete version is Rip-Helm. It offers no way to pressure opponent's planeswalker, the combo pieces have to be assembled, doesn't do much by itself.
RiP does work against over half of the other decks in the format. Half of the Thopter/Sword combo does nothing on its own. But yeah, whatever. Snapcasters and Ponders 4lyf. Might try and work some Preordanes in here.
Also does Portent become not terrible against Spirit of the Labyrinth?
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
I feel like the bigger issue is the amount of deck space that it takes up. Entreat doesn't require multiple pieces to be active and only takes up 2 slots for 2 separate wincons. Thopters takes up about 5-6 slots and requires you to setup Thopter and Sword to function, although it's true that you can get additional utility out of the SFMs.
He just went all-in on beating creature decks. Only 4 Force and 1 Counterspell? I guess from looking at Einherjer's report, you can really just go a whole day without seeing more than 1 combo deck these days. I just don't get why he would improve the creature matchup at the expense of the combo matchup, when it's so positive that a pile of Miracles decks made top 8 at the last GP.
I guess it was a great metagame call.
What's more interesting is not just that he opted to play Thopter/Sword over Entreat the Angels. If you watch the deck tech he actually says that Entreat the Angels is terrible, and that part of what made him run thopter/sword was that he actively did not want to play Entreat. I find this rather odd, since in my experience Entreat has always felt like one of the most powerful cards in the deck, even including the annoying Miracle mechanic you must work around to play it.
BBD is definitely a great player, but I feel like this is one of those situations where you have little to no experience with a deck and arbitrarily decide that the list you're looking at is inefficient and needs "improvement." Most likely he decided that Entreat was bad simply by watching other Miracles players coupled with a bit of confirmation bias; it's easy to think Entreat is clunky when you have little experience with the deck (especially when you haven't played a lot of games against GBx).
Comparing "classic" miracles to "miracle blade" is not just Entreat versus thopters.
Thopter+sword beeing a two-card combo is a huge difference to Entreat the Angels, especially if set it up with enlightened tutor, that has allready been mentioned. Another important factor, that most people overlook, is mana. If you want to entreat for x=2 and dodge a spell pierce you are looking at 6 lands. Thopters can be online with far less. Depending on your overall build those extra landdrops actually makes for card-disadvantage assuming you don't really want them, or have them in time.
As a win-con I think Entreat is much better because it fills a hole in the decks strategy (beeing slow) and is also the perfect follow up to a terminus. This is why I prefer ensnaring bridge (and/or moat+humility) over terminus in thopter builds because you can't suddenly win after a terminus. Having a goyf poking you when you have a sword of the meek and nothing else is clearly annoying. Going turn 2 sword of the meek turn 3 thopters is generally not what will (or should) happen versus most decks.
Thopter foundry, stoneforge mystic and "bombs" makes you more vulnerable to discard, swords to plowshares, abrupt decay and disenchant effects. Humility, ensnaring bridge and blood moon also limit your deck construction quite a bit.
Is it worth the upside of having inevitability in thopters and a few "gotcha" moments? Having played both versions for +100 matches I don't think it is. You can steal a game against sneak&show with Humility but you will also loose as often because you got stuck with blood moon in hand against burn. Adding inconsistency for raw power in a control shell don't appeal to me.
Thopters are nice for the CB-curve but that's more of a bonus, not a reason to play it as the main strategy. I do like thopters though so...
What I do recommend now when people have adopted the small mystic package in their sideboard is to move that package to the maindeck and in those sb-slots play 2 foundries and 1 sword of the meek. Instead of building your deck around thopters you add it as a different angle of attack versus slow and fair decks. If you cut a terminus, a swords to plowshares and perhaps a counterspell you'll end up with about the same "balance". I still don't think it's needed, but if you struggle in the mirror or against some of the fair decks it's worth a try.
If you play the thopterversion I recommend playing the miracles in the sideboard instead of the maindeck. And please don't play nonbos! My eyes hurt when I see that.
How the hell is Terminus + Thopter Sword a nombo?
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
I never said that. I said that Terminus is better in miracles with entreat. The last part was just me ranting over the academy ruins + blood moon, the rip + thopters, the clique + humility etcetc.
Oh you started a sentence with 'and' that's what happened.
Thopters + Miracles isn't bad. You just cut two or three Entreats for 2 Thopters and a Sword, basically. Batterskull + Terminus is also sweet.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
I feel like BBD doesn't fully understand the deck (not a knock against him. He's obviously pretty good at slinging spells), if he spent his efforts trying to hedge all of his bets as best that he can. To be specific, in the Deck Tech, he even states that he dislikes Entreat the Angels as the primary win condition (which I believe to be JTMS, anyway). Therefore, he added all this stuff in order to be more explosive.
So he took the deck in a direction that suited him, which - to me - is in the spirit of what Legacy is.
Nevertheless, I feel like BBD's list will really only work for him; and I wouldn't necessarily jump to copy it. But, that doesn't mean there isn't something we can learn from it. For example, is a Enlightened Tutor package worth it; should we consider changing up the creature mix; etc.?
For now, I'm sticking to the version(s) from GP Paris. Nothing like casting a Miracle'd Entreat the Angels for 3-5 during my opponent's attack step or end-of-turn step. :-D
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Changing gears, I'm having difficulty beating Esper Deathblade. I'm sure part of this is my relative inexperience with this deck. However, Thoughtseize, Force of Will and Liliana backed up by efficient threats seems to be troubling. Often times, I don't have the right answer to the threats they're presenting. Oftentimes, it feels like it comes down to a race after I've cast Entreat for 4-5 Angel's. Nevertheless, their disruption feels as if the match up is in their favor - at least game one.
Is there something I'm missing? Am I undervaluing Counterbalance? How do we beat a resolved Liliana? Thanks!
Yes, you've missed hours of Miracle stream watching. Oarsman consistently defeats one-time Liliana ultimate, he might have defeated double Liliana ultimate from time to time. As long as you have SDT in play, it's entirely possible. Basically, it's hard to explain in sentences, watching the stream recording makes the matter self-explanatory, also it depends on which Miracle build you're playing.
Removing any number of Entreats for X card seems like a huge mistake. Entreat is a single card with a mana requirement of 3-5 to act as a win condition. It requires use of Brainstorming and Library manipulation.
Thopter combo is a 2-card 4+ mana invest where each card is useless on it's own AND is vulnerable to graveyard hate or needle. Thopter seems significantly worse.
The best are early EtA for 1-2 angel and going stompy against fair decks xP
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You beat Liliana in one of a few ways...
You flash in creatures/angels eot to kill her.
You ignore her if you can and just Entreat for huge.
You float mana in response to her ultimate and resolve Entreat post-ultimate.
You race her with Jace going upstairs and if you can keep them off additional threats, Jace will win every time (even if Liliana ultimates).
I would say that you are likely undervaluing Counterbalance if you even ask the question. Counterbalance is great against Esper.
Supreme Verdicat is also good. How are you sideboarding?
uh..., about that Primer, whoever's working on it, PV dropped his wisdom: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ouse-miracles/
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