[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[Mindlash]

Yeah I had to walk outside and get air. Its really stressful to lose to a match that feels like 90/10.

I will play TinFins again when the time comes (When my friend gives it to me) but for now back to the Belcher / SI / Doomsday side of the world!

I like "unfair" people :)

Most of my friends are "unfair" too. There is only one guy from us who plays decks like Jund, Maverick, RUG and so on (but of course he owns Dredge and Belcher too :-P) so he has to take the beatings most oft the time.

My cardpool consists mainly of TES, ANT, Tinfins, Dredge (LED and Manaless), Belcher and about 90% of the cards required for SI and Doomsday.

ANT is my long time favorite though and Tinfins my newest addition (got pursuaded by some of my friends: "let us all build Tinfins and terrorize people" "well...uhm...ok!").

I struggled with some inconsistency issues at first, but Koby's and Acclimation's decklist really worked out well in testing so far. So I guess there will be some Griselbrand at BoM Annecy (at least in the trials for me).

Greetings Chris

[Koby]

I struggled with some inconsistency issues at first, but Koby's and Acclimation's decklist really worked out well in testing so far. So I guess there will be some Griselbrand at BoM Annecy (at least in the trials for me).

Greetings Chris

That is quite encouraging. Thanks for believing in the list. For a long while I thought it must be a pilot inclination, then Logan had a ton of success (and continues to, even with a few discouraging X-2/X-3 finishes). I think the secret lies in understanding the timing of Shallow Grave, and correct sequencing of bait spells. There are certainly weaknesses in the list, especially the mana, but I think the core combo + heavy cantrip route makes this list a powerhouse.

I mean, if it mostly works for ANT and TES, then why wouldn't it work for Tin Fins too?

[Acclimation]

That is quite encouraging. Thanks for believing in the list. For a long while I thought it must be a pilot inclination, then Logan had a ton of success (and continues to, even with a few discouraging X-2/X-3 finishes). I think the secret lies in understanding the timing of Shallow Grave, and correct sequencing of bait spells. There are certainly weaknesses in the list, especially the mana, but I think the core combo + heavy cantrip route makes this list a powerhouse.

I mean, if it mostly works for ANT and TES, then why wouldn't it work for Tin Fins too?

Discouraging?

HA! Those "poor" finishes give me encouragement to do better.

All of those points are correct though. Once we get the mana configuration optimized, the deck will be ANT level good.

Should we have a Tinfins summit/workshop in the future?

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[.dk]

Should we have a Tinfins summit/workshop in the future?

Yes please!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

How much do you guys really like the reanimate? Is it something you prefer to keep?

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[Acclimation]

How much do you guys really like the reanimate? Is it something you prefer to keep?

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I personally like the reanimate, since it lets us have some interesting lines of play.

I've had games in which I've Reanimated Griselbrand on t1 and played like reanimator. It lets us get Children into play (again) for 1 mana and counts towards the life loss for its ability.

If it is taking up any particular slot, it would be the 4th Goryo, and I feel like the above reasons more than make up for the fact that we can't reanimate Emrakul with Reanimate, nor the fact that it gives whatever we Reanimate haste.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Indeed, I have been playing with the 4th Vengeance for a while now. It does put me more "all in" obviously. Maybe I will try it, I just hate losing all that life without getting a new full grip.

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[.dk]

I prefer Reanimate to the 4th Goryo's Vengeance for a variety of reasons, but namely because Vengeance can't reanimate children of korlis. Reanimate has lots of other utility (nabbing your opponents creatures from their graveyard after you've discarded them is always a great feeling) as well, but really it comes down to being able to make Children. If you've spent your shallow grave on Griselbrand already, having 4 cards left that can reanimate Children is worth it in my opinion.

It's a similar reason why I prefer the 1st Mox Diamond to the 2nd Chrome Mox - I just want another Lotus petal. If I could run 6 Lotus Petals I would.

[DavidHernandez]

I prefer Reanimate to the 4th Goryo's Vengeance for a variety of reasons, but namely because Vengeance can't reanimate children of korlis. Reanimate has lots of other utility (nabbing your opponents creatures from their graveyard after you've discarded them is always a great feeling) as well, but really it comes down to being able to make Children. If you've spent your shallow grave on Griselbrand already, having 4 cards left that can reanimate Children is worth it in my opinion.

It's a similar reason why I prefer the 1st Mox Diamond to the 2nd Chrome Mox - I just want another Lotus petal. If I could run 6 Lotus Petals I would.

^^ +1 on both paragraphs!

[Acclimation]

I feel like one of these days, I should make some Tinfins vs the World videos.

I feel that sometimes it's easier to see a deck play against certain match-ups, as well with commentary to explain decisions than it is to explain it via text in theoretical situations.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yes. Play against the Delver triple threat (RUG, BUG, Patriot) and esper death and stoneblade. That basically sums up "the world" currently, anyway.

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[Acclimation]

Yes. Play against the Delver triple threat (RUG, BUG, Patriot) and esper death and stoneblade. That basically sums up "the world" currently, anyway.

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How about I jam 10 games against Jund so we can watch my friend get pissed at how good at Cabal Therapy I am?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Hahaha yes. That will show him. Will he stick around for 10 games? If I were to play Jund, I wouldn't...

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[cogitoergosum]

Went 2-1 at a local tonight, losing in the championship round. Unfortunately, fewer people showed up than usual so it was 3 rounds instead of 4+. I played 2 games on camera, so I'll link that if anyone wants to watch me play poorly. I didn't get much sleep last night, so I made a few foolish moves (I was flustered trying to combo out one game and tried to flashback cabal therapy from my hand lol). Here is the link: http://www.twitch.tv/meadhallgames

I ran the standard list, 4-3 cabal/ seize split, 2 LDV, 14 lands, 1 mox.

Round 1: Beat U/W Stoneblade 2-0.
Game 1 I go off t1 for a storm win.
Game 2, I was at 5 life facing down a meddling mage and stoneforge mystic. I swing, draw 7, and set up an emrakul win next turn with protection. I stripped his hand earlier of rest in piece and spell pierce.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 LDV, -1 reanimate, +4 silence, +3 CoV (I thought about massacre but decided against it)

Round 2: 2-0 vs Lands (on camera)
Game 1 I go off again t1, but get flustered trying to get to 10 storm (I was at 8 with 5 mana and tendrils in hand). This was my cabal therapy play, but I used 1 mana to get to 9 storm, tendrils win.
Game two he mulls to 4 I mull to 6. Neither of us draw anything for like 10 turns (i had a goryos in the opening grip, and some discard). Eventually, I get the entomb and it is game over with a emrakul and griselbrand swing.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 ponder, -1 LDV, -1 Reanimate +3 CoV, +2 pithing needle, +2 serenity

Round 3: Loss 0-2 to Merfolk (on camera)
Game 1 he plays cursecatcher and passes. I play a land, lotus petal, and mox on blue. I knew his hand from a g probe. End of his turn i spend 4 life with LDV finding the entomb. My turn I go off t2, draw 14 cards (I was at 14 life so had to GB swing). I am one mana short of getting COK. I set up a win for next turn, but forget he has a mutavault while I am at 2 life.
Game 2-I mull to 6, keeping a lose hand with cabal and GB, mana sources. In hindsight, maybe I mull there. I cabal him a couple times (I drew another) and sacced COK to cabal myself. Meanwhile he had a t1 relic of progentitus in play. I pretty much know I'm done, I cabal myself, his turn he removes my graveyard. Game over. Even though he had a FOW in hand as I found out, I had 2 shallow graves in hand, and should have waited a turn to see if I got another mana source/ dark rit to be able to double cast shallow graves.
Sideboarded: -4 probe, -1 reanimate, -1 LDV, +4 silence, +2 chain of vapor

All in all I was running hot, and I think I just got unlucky with the fizzle against Merfolk. Otherwise, we would have had an interesting Game 3.

Until next time, keep drawing multiples of 7 :)

[Acclimation]

Hahaha yes. That will show him. Will he stick around for 10 games? If I were to play Jund, I wouldn't...

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Ofc he will. We play that match-up all the time. And I win 9/10 games.

I also can read him like a book and haven't missed a Therapy against him in months.

I need to make this happen so we can have a chuckle at the profanity laced, 2 Chainz referencing games we have.

Went 2-1 at a local tonight, losing in the championship round. Unfortunately, fewer people showed up than usual so it was 3 rounds instead of 4+. I played 2 games on camera, so I'll link that if anyone wants to watch me play poorly. I didn't get much sleep last night, so I made a few foolish moves (I was flustered trying to combo out one game and tried to flashback Cabal Therapy from my hand lol). Here is the link: http://www.twitch.tv/meadhallgames

I ran the standard list, 4-3 cabal/ seize split, 2 LDV, 14 lands, 1 mox.

Round 1: Beat U/W Stoneblade 2-0.
Game 1 I go off t1 for a storm win.
Game 2, I was at 5 life facing down a Meddling Mage and Stoneforge Mystic. I swing, draw 7, and set up an emrakul win next turn with protection. I stripped his hand earlier of rest in piece and Spell Pierce.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 LDV, -1 reanimate, +4 silence, +3 CoV (I thought about massacre but decided against it)

Round 2: 2-0 vs Lands (on camera)
Game 1 I go off again t1, but get flustered trying to get to 10 storm (I was at 8 with 5 mana and tendrils in hand). This was my Cabal Therapy play, but I used 1 mana to get to 9 storm, tendrils win.
Game two he mulls to 4 I mull to 6. Neither of us draw anything for like 10 turns (i had a goryos in the opening grip, and some discard). Eventually, I get the entomb and it is game over with a emrakul and griselbrand swing.
Sideboard: -4 G probe, -1 ponder, -1 LDV, -1 Reanimate +3 CoV, +2 Pithing Needle, +2 serenity

Round 3: Loss 0-2 to Merfolk (on camera)
Game 1 he plays cursecatcher and passes. I play a land, Lotus Petal, and mox on blue. I knew his hand from a g probe. End of his turn i spend 4 life with LDV finding the entomb. My turn I go off t2, draw 14 cards (I was at 14 life so had to GB swing). I am one Mana Short of getting COK. I set up a win for next turn, but forget he has a mutavault while I am at 2 life.
Game 2-I mull to 6, keeping a lose hand with cabal and GB, mana sources. In hindsight, maybe I mull there. I cabal him a couple times (I drew another) and sacced COK to cabal myself. Meanwhile he had a t1 relic of progentitus in play. I pretty much know I'm done, I cabal myself, his turn he removes my graveyard. Game over. Even though he had a FOW in hand as I found out, I had 2 Shallow Grave in hand, and should have waited a turn to see if I got another mana source/ dark rit to be able to double cast Shallow Grave.
Sideboarded: -4 probe, -1 reanimate, -1 LDV, +4 silence, +2 Chain of Vapor

All in all I was running hot, and I think I just got unlucky with the fizzle against Merfolk. Otherwise, we would have had an interesting Game 3.

Until next time, keep drawing multiples of 7 :)

Good report. Sometimes you just get unlucky when it counts.

[cogitoergosum]

I want to add that it seems like I get mana flooded more than I get mana screwed (maybe I just have bad luck). So, I want to go back to testing the 13 lands, and either 2 chrome mox, or 1 chrome and 1 diamond.

[DavidHernandez]

I want to add that it seems like I get mana flooded more than I get mana screwed (maybe I just have bad luck). So, I want to go back to testing the 13 lands, and either 2 chrome mox, or 1 chrome and 1 diamond.

With 15 land, I never get screwed now. I'd like to ask you to test the diamond so we get more data, but with only 13 lands it may hurt you to play it. Have you tried 14 lands, 1 chrome Mox, one Mox diamond?

[Mindlash]

Discouraging?

HA! Those "poor" finishes give me encouragement to do better.

All of those points are correct though. Once we get the mana configuration optimized, the deck will be ANT level good.

Should we have a Tinfins summit/workshop in the future?

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What is the problem with the current mana configuration?

Comparing it with the ANT manabase:

ANT:
1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Tin-Fins:
1 Scrubland
1 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

We play a similar mana configuration. Same quantity of duals and fetchlands, exchanging the second basic with a Chrome Mox, while using a similar cantrip suite.

It worked out very well so far.

While we are at it: Whats with Preordain instead of Lim-Dûl's Vault? I do not like the 2 cmc of the latter, but it will always dig you the missing parts. I learned to love Preordain, while playing ANT. But I guess it digs not deep enough in Tin-Fins, so it will slow us down and require addional cantripping. Anyone has done some testing here?

That is quite encouraging. Thanks for believing in the list. For a long while I thought it must be a pilot inclination, then Logan had a ton of success (and continues to, even with a few discouraging X-2/X-3 finishes). I think the secret lies in understanding the timing of Shallow Grave, and correct sequencing of bait spells. There are certainly weaknesses in the list, especially the mana, but I think the core combo + heavy cantrip route makes this list a powerhouse.

I mean, if it mostly works for ANT and TES, then why wouldn't it work for Tin Fins too?

You are welcome.

This deck in general is lots of fun to play and I like this decklist alot.

Can't wait to bring it to the battlefield. Sadly there are not many events where I live. Hope for an Infinite Trial Package at BoM 9 :)

Greetings Chris

[Acclimation]

What is the problem with the current mana configuration?

<there were words here>

We play a similar mana configuration. Same quantity of duals and fetchlands, exchanging the second basic with a Chrome Mox, while using a similar cantrip suite.

It worked out very well so far.

While we are at it: Whats with Preordain instead of Lim-Dûl's Vault? I do not like the 2 cmc of the latter, but it will always dig you the missing parts. I learned to love Preordain, while playing ANT. But I guess it digs not deep enough in Tin-Fins, so it will slow us down and require addional cantripping. Anyone has done some testing here?

The actual mana base itself is great, 14 is the sweet spot, with 13 being correct if you are in a combo heavy meta. The mana issues that we are having are from needing a non land mana source to continue comboing. We have 4 Petal and 1 Mox, which are great most of the time, but I've sometimes lost games or had games go on longer due to not drawing 1 or more of those. It's something that comes up often enough that the majority of us feel the need to address it, but we've made 0 progress lately due to a lack of tournaments and/or testing on the people running the same list.

The problem is, is that to add something we need to cut something, and if we have too much mana, we risk losing out on something else, whether it be protection, business or cantrips. We're strapped for business, cutting cantrips isn't ideal, and our protection helps us to bin creatures if necessary. I'm thinking that with the current set up, we could cut the 3rd Thoughtseize for a Mox Diamond, FWIW, but can't do any testing due to having no Diamonds nor a play group in my area.

Which brings me to your next point, why LDV over Preordain? Simply put, we are often bottlenecked by Entomb and LDV helps us find Entomb, as well as any other card that we might need.

Sometimes it's correct to t2 LDV to set up for a t3 kill. Sometimes LDV gets imprinted. Sometimes it's irrelevant. Sometimes it helps us dig in the late game. It's a versatile card that goes deep and finds us the combination we need to win. Preordain just digs, and the scry is weak in a shuffle heavy deck such as this. Vault does a lot of heavy lifting when needed, whereas Preordain is weak.

[Mindlash]

The actual mana base itself is great, 14 is the sweet spot, with 13 being correct if you are in a combo heavy meta. The mana issues that we are having are from needing a non land mana source to continue comboing. We have 4 Petal and 1 Mox, which are great most of the time, but I've sometimes lost games or had games go on longer due to not drawing 1 or more of those. It's something that comes up often enough that the majority of us feel the need to address it, but we've made 0 progress lately due to a lack of tournaments and/or testing on the people running the same list.

The problem is, is that to add something we need to cut something, and if we have too much mana, we risk losing out on something else, whether it be protection, business or cantrips. We're strapped for business, cutting cantrips isn't ideal, and our protection helps us to bin creatures if necessary. I'm thinking that with the current set up, we could cut the 3rd Thoughtseize for a Mox Diamond, FWIW, but can't do any testing due to having no Diamonds nor a play group in my area.

Which brings me to your next point, why LDV over Preordain? Simply put, we are often bottlenecked by Entomb and LDV helps us find Entomb, as well as any other card that we might need.

Sometimes it's correct to t2 LDV to set up for a t3 kill. Sometimes LDV gets imprinted. Sometimes it's irrelevant. Sometimes it helps us dig in the late game. It's a versatile card that goes deep and finds us the combination we need to win. Preordain just digs, and the scry is weak in a shuffle heavy deck such as this. Vault does a lot of heavy lifting when needed, whereas Preordain is weak.

The LDV vs Preordain explanation makes sense.

Why Mox Diamond over a second Chrome Mox? Chrome Mox has a lot more "targets", but after comboing out it doesn't really matter I guess. Mox Diamond can "hardcast" CoK in the combo turn though.

Is it possible to cut a land for a mox? Or is it to much stress on the manabase due to all these tempo decks around? I think 15 permanent mana sources is about the right number and the number of moxes in it makes you better or worse before the combo and in the combo.

Greetings Chris