For those who care.. the DTB section doesnt get updated every day but once in a month. Thats probably why this deck isnt in the DTB forum.
For fun.Originally Posted by rlesko
@ three FoWs: I think that there's no reason to cut the fourth FoW, but in a meta that warrants eight burn, it's quite possible that the full set isn't necessary.
@Bed Decks Pal...:
Especially in a Rug Version with an overload on Burn and fewer Countermagic you need (!) 4 force of wills,otherwise you'll just die to any kind of combo or control i guess.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
What are you taking out for the 4 chains?
What I meant is that one FoW might be switched for Pierce, so that the number of counters is high, though the blue count is smaller..
This is one of 3 decks i'm planning to bring to the bazaar if moxen in may.( The other 2 decks are German ******** or Burg Delver if you will and ANT with double ad nauseam)
That's how the Deck looks like right now,just super powerful so far:
Deck: Canadian ******** by Kai Thiele
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells:30
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Lands:18
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:15
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Life from the Loam
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Price of Progress
2 Rough // Tumble
3 Submerge
The only "bad" matchup is maybe,just maybe manaless dredge coz there is no gravehate at all in the entire 75.but let's be honest: Who on earth is manaless dredge?
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
I'm OK with your Burn-Plan and PoP-Strategy, also interested in your future endresult in the BOM-Event in May. Good luck!
Personally with Chain I have my thoughts against all the R.decs.
But why Preordain instead of full Playset of Ponder? Never liked it. Would you explain your choice?
Imho a piece of Gravehate in a large Tourney is a must, at least 1 Cage. Don't forget potentail MUs like Elves and Reanimator, too. I'd cut Revoker for it.
I'll admit: I'm not a big fan of Ponder in RUG !
You'll say Ponder is a great cantrip because it lets you see up to 4 cards compared to a preordain (3 cards).
Thats true for sure,but most of the time ponder is only excellent together with a shuffle effect,otherwise you are going to draw all 3 cards from top.
Let's count the number of shuffle-effects we have in our deck: 8 fetchlands,thats it.
UWR Delver on the other side has 12 ! (8 Fetchlands+4 Stoneforge Mystics)
So i would definately run the full set of Ponder in UWR,but not in RUG.
Preordain in the other hand is perfect,you can always put unnecessary cards (like duals in the lategame) on bottom without having a shuffle effect.
During 2011 when i lived in Tokyo, RUG was the best deck in the format and i played many mirrorgames in tournaments there.
My Teammate and i decided to increase the dual-count up to 8 and reduce the fetchlands down to 6 to have more actual 'lands'.
We then realized,that ponder isn't that great anymore,so we took 4 preordains in the maindeck and we succeed.(Sometimes we played with 9 cantrips to improve the mirror)
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
Preordain vs ponder
With shuffle
Ponder > preordain
There's no argument here.
Without shuffle
You want 0 of 2
Ponder > preordain (perhaps you keep because card 3 is awesome, if you have to shuffle it's a tie)
You want 1 of 2
Preordain > ponder
You want 2 of 2
Ponder > Preordain (you see card 3 and get to arrange accordingly)
It seems ponder is slightly better or even without a shuffle and without argument better with a shuffle.
To me this seems like you would max out ponder before touching preordain.
Delver of Secrets make ponder better. If you play dismember, fire or tarfire over forked bolt/chain, maybe split with 3 ponder 2 preordains for more sorcerys to tarmogoyf.
When this card enter the scene?
And i would not understimate dredge.
GC.
Perhaps I've miscommunicated myself once more.
Playing more removal in the form of burn is, I believe, a step in the right direction. It kills elves, it kills SFM, it kills t1 Mother of Runes, it kills Merfolk, and it races TNN.
I believe this burn should be either: Fire//Ice, or, as initially suggested and corroborated by sawatarix, Chain Lightning.
My secondary assertion of moving a Force of Will to the SB and replacing it with a third Spell Pierce MB is only relevant in the 4x Chain Lightning discussion. However, this was merely a suggestion if the individual player did not find the blue count high enough to support 4x FoW, and was meant merely as suggestion, not opinion.
Again:
Don't get hung up on me suggesting cutting a Force. It wasn't my initial point, and it is not my continuing point. First and foremost, I'm trying to talk about notching up to 8x removal spells.
+++++++
On Preordain vs. Ponder: I'm pretty sure the Japanese lists that were running Preordain were playing them in place of Stifle, right? Replacing Ponder itself with Preordain does not seem to provide very many benefits to me. When less than 1/3 or your deck consists of land, and when hitting your cantrips appropriately is usually the path to assembling your manabase, seeing that 3rd card seems awfully important.
The same could be said about removal, creatures, and permission.
Additionally, I believe part of the power derived from Canadian Thresh is in utilizing 3 to 1 ratios. Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets are 3 power creatures for 1 mana. Lightning Bolt (and, hence, Chain Lightning) is a 3 to 1 burn spell. Brainstorm and Ponder are 3 to 1 Cantrips (you see 3 cards) with Ponder providing an incidental 4th card if necessary. Preordain is a 2 to 1 cantrip that incidentally provides a third card. I don't believe it is powerful enough.
@Loam:it's still in there to beat Team America,Patriot and the mirror.
"But Team America has 4 shamans to negate it" you'll say.well i would agree if we play 5-6 burn.But we don't:8 burn+3Submerge is an overload for shaman.
@cantrips: the 9th cantrip list was also fine,like the stifleless builds during gp atlanta when thought scour was a card.
The first rug idea we had 3 weeks ago had 9 cantrips and 1 counterspell instead of 2 spell pierces.The Deck really wants to cantrip every turn to always find the correct answer for opposing plans.
(Trollking21's comparison between Ponder and Preordain isn't 100% correct in my oppinion by the way,sry buddy)
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
The 8+ catrips build feel a bit like Storm.dec to me. You're right that we need to find the perfect answer, though. Maybe it's a way to go, I just can't imagine how would I make it into 60/75 cards with all the additional burn, cantrips and such, all the while keepijg at least one Snare and some number of usual suspects.
Take sawatrix list from above
-1 Goyf +1 Snare if you really want to play at least one. There you have your 8 cantrips, 8 burn and 3 non force, non daze countermagics.
I definitely feel like the deck wants 8 burn, but I just don't like how little flexibility that leaves us with. With that being said after seeing both Atlanta and St. Louis lists winning with 2 gitaxian probes I almost feel like 2 - 3 gitaxian probes are mandatory (???). I mean I'll be the first to say I've flip flopped on probe more times than I can count. Probe is very powerful in our deck allowing for perfect sequencing and some serious blow outs. In addition it lets us know what "perfect answer" we need to look for. Then again I've definitely used it and it doesn't change the fact that I'm dead to cards x + y or that combo has the nuts and anything short of drawing 2 forces won't save me. It's just such a weird card while be extremely powerful sometimes leading to "oh they have one land I lead wasteland and win " to "bricked on a land and I still don't have an answer to tarmogoyf in their hand " or something like that. After plenty of those I felt like it was a crutch and adding more fuel was the answer, but after play testing with 2 just recently I remembered how broken it can make our sequencing.
Personally I'm starting to feel like the main deck should be organized with 6 removal (total), 2 gitaxian probes and 2 spare counter magic (spell pierce, spell snare, counterspell, etc). I also really like dismember right now with so many batterskul and Team America decks on the rise, but maybe that's just me. I do think though if you're dead set on the 8 burn plan that you shouldn't run probe as the other 2 slots since at that point probe slows you down more than helps you.
I usually bridge the gap with seven bolts, two pierces, and a snare (everything else core). I would never leave home these days without seven removal spells, and I may try cutting a Force from the main for the eighth bolt.
Pizza, beer, and Canadian Thresh.
Scott,maybe you can try out my list from above before cutting force of will as it is one of the most important cards in Rug delver.
I can just repeat: The List is nuts gents ,i would only tchange the sideboard a bit,but thats it.
Pondering to bring it to BOM.
- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -
I may see something like 54 Thresh, 4 additional Burn, 1 Pierce, 1 Snare work.
You got your usual shell of 54 cards.
Four burn spells (be it Chain Lightning, Forked Bolt or Tarfire) add reach and removal. It's up to you to decide if brutal power (CL) or fleibility (FB or TF) is your choice.
One Spell Pierce as a Daze no.5 against non-creatures.
One Spell Snare as a hard counter against two-mana threats be it SFM, Goyf, IT, CB, Jitte, Confidant, Hymn, Library, SCM, BW, CRit, Thalia, RiP, Monolith, CotV, SotL, Energy Field, Piledriver, Serra Avenger, LoA, Ravager, Enchantress, Shallow Grave, YP, Cannonist, Ooze, Strix, Golgari Charm, Standstill, LftL, PoP, Defense Grid and Daze.
I see what you did there ;)
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