I'm running a split of 2 sudden demise and 2 firebolt as I still want access to some mass removal.
Hell I'd not really run less than four Firebolt, and supplement it with Sudden Demise. Four of a card is just enough for Mono Red. We run more than four Moons and Blasts for this reason.
Yet another question... For the white splashes, any thought on Ajani Vengeant as the 1-2 of planeswalker? I just like that it protects itself.
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You're trying to get away from the deck's premise. It's a Painter/Stone combo deck. The white is only there to facilitate that combo, and expedite silver bullets.
No, I get the purpose of the deck completely. The core of the deck is set and I understand how it is played. That's why I'm more interested in the corner cases and the flex cards. If it was ONLY about the combo, then why not play 4 e.tutor, 4 top, etc. and maybe that's the way to go. I'm just wondering if anyone has had experience with some of these other cads.
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Well, it has been decided that even a single Plains clunks the deck up, so only four expendable white sources for a four mana planeswalker is probably not what the deck wants, when looking at it like that. I see where you're going with the logic, but I'm operating under the assumption (fact) that Seth/Jack have their lists tuned as best as possible, so all cards not included are sub par. Depends on your meta, though. Ajani is a sweet card that protects itself, it has merrit.
Having a hard time casting it is not a sufficient reason. If casting a planeswalker with W in the casting cost is enough to seal up the game, you will put yourself in a position to have that mana ready. Whether it's an enlightened tutor, an ethersworn canonist, or a rest in peace, making sure you have a W to use is something this deck is very much able to accomplish.
Like you, my initial response was "no, that's not good enough." However, when is seriously started thinking about why, I had a hard time articulating any real reason. Looking deeper into the issue led me to comparing it against the other cards it would be fighting for a slot.
Being a four-cost planeswalker, the natural cards to compare it to are Koth and Chandra. I would say that Koth is better if you need a supplement to your attack strategy (if you run out of steam against control, for example), and Ajani is obviously better if you need help on defense. However, I think Ajani is badly beaten out by Ensnaring Bridge as a defensive strategy. Chandra is still a card I'm struggling to fully understand, but if I had to pick a scenario where I want it in play I'd start with a deck like BUG with a relatively slow gameplan and a relatively high number of 1-toughness guys (both factors, not just one). That's something that's getting less common these days, at least in my area.
Given this cursory analysis, I would probably go with Koth or ensnaring bridge. Ajani isn't a card I would completely rule out. The ability to tap down lands is good against almost any deck in the format, so the card is never really dead. Then again, you can say something similar about Chandra.
That's a solid point, I suppose that is what I was trying to ask in hindsight, but went about it the wrong way. In the end, it comes down to being a question of being good enough. I'd definitely play it over Chandra, that much I can say.
So I was hoping to get some feedback from you guys, here roughly 2 months before Bazaar of Moxen 9.
A few weeks back, I peeked at my local legacy tournament, providing a perfect 6-0 record (6 rounds swiss, obviously) with the MonoR version of iPainter. But since then, I've had a few problems establishing a solid grip on my opponents - since everybody knows I'm playing the deck. So I've changed my deck a little and was hoping that you guys would comment on pro's and con's with this particular list:
Mainboard
6x Mountains
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Painter's Servant
4x Grindstone
3x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Blood Moon
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Imperial Recruiter
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1z Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Lotus Petal
1x Chrome Mox
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Gitaxian Probe
Sideboard
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Manic Vandal
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Koth of the Hammer
3x Pyrokinesis
1x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
So... In games, I've had problems not being able to get a "fresh" top 3 of cards, since I didn't have fetchlands in my former build. I'm trying to correct that now, by throwing 4 Scalding Tarns in it.. But I don't know if 4 is flooding the deck or 3 should be right number?
Also I'm trying a one off Bridge in the main, to have a little more game against SneakyShow on game 1.
Other than that, it's pretty standard..
I'd like to know, what you think of it. Any feedback is appreciated, since i'm building the deck towards BoM9 in under 2 months time :)
Dude, look at my list on the front page, it seems like you're going in that direction. Plus, this is a deck that attacks a metagame. How exactly are you attacking your metagame [wiht this list]?
What is the role of Goblin Welder in the lists that run it? Just to recur key artifacts in some matchups? And should it be a maindeck or sideboard card?
As a 1-of tutor target it helps to fight removal. Randomly drawing it with Grindstone in play gives you the possibility to mill yourself to get Painter in play from your graveyard. It might come in handy against equipment as well. To me the correct number is one in main deck. As has been said, it is the most powerful single card in the deck and usually has to be answered fast. Still, the deck absolutely does not need one. Therefore I opt for a single copy, just for the sake of having options, especially under Ensnaring bridge. If you play mono red with Gamble, you likely want more Welders.Originally Posted by yugular
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Your list on the front page? :P
Lots of great ideas guys. I like that people are putting the white splash to the fire and I have a bunch of thoughts on lots of the questions being asked. Since I'm no longer working on the NICU I'll try my best to answer most of them as much of the testing for them has been done.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
Lots of great ideas guys. I like that people are putting the white splash to the fire and I have a bunch of thoughts on lots of the questions being asked. Since I'm no longer working on the NICU I'll try my best to answer most of them as much of the testing for them has been done.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
So I have the white splash coming in the mail in the next few days, but I am left wondering why only 2 tutors? I'm sure lots of testing went into this number but it seems like it is tutor 1-2 for grind stone and 5-6 for painter. why not get it up to 4 and lose 1 reb and 1 top?
It's certainly an option. I only run 2 because I just swapped them in for my 2x faithless looting. I've done pretty well with the current configuration so I figured why change anything when it's been working. Seth runs 3 tutors (2 tops) and has done well too. He is considering the 4th tutor also. I would say go ahead and run 3-4 and see where it takes you.
Ok... So I've been back and forth with 2-3 or even 4 tutors.
However, I think Jack is 100% correct in only 2 tutors.
My reasoning is that you don't want to draw the tutors necessarily, you'd rather just have the combo pieces. So by 2 tutors technically you just have 6 chances of drawing grind/painter. Then there's just the bonus of it fetching hate / lock cards if needed to survive or force the combo.
I played Jack's 60 MB this past weekend in side events in Richmond. Absolutely loved everything about it. Just tailoring the SB to my likes, but nothing revolutionary. I do like a helm to go with the RIPs.
I beat 2 Sneak Attack decks in a side event (bridge, revoker, RIP, combo win in all 4 games won). I got a little nervous about echoing truth bouncing 1 or multiple bridges. I'm thinking of playing 1 peacekeeper in the side to possibly protect against echoing truth.
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Yup, and thanks to Seth/Jack I got a 10k+ word primer on MonoR/Rw Painter coming out. Will link when publsihed
Excited to see the primer, I was at GP Richmond (not playing any legacy side events though) and picked up some stuff for the white splash, just in case I want to play it.
What I'd love to see is a breakdown of when you would want to play MonoR vs RW, and why.
A couple of notes, now that I know the list just replaced Faithless Looting with Enlightened Tutor it makes sense that you've got 3 Goblin Welders in the main. It seems like there could be room to reduce that to two or one, and put something else in that spot main deck, maybe, it also makes sense to run a Great Furnace with 3 Goblin Welders but if you reduce your welders it might make sense to reconsider that slot.
Also since we are talking about R/W tech, any discussion about Spirit of the Labyrinth? Can't be found with Imperial Recruiter, but can be Found with Enlighten Tutor...
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