I don't understand why there is no discard anywhere in your list? I would cut the 2 Spell Pierce and 2 Disfigure for some form of discard. Thoughtseize scares me a little bit because of the -2 in addition to Dark Confidant life loss could add up. However, you are already pretty heavy at the 2-drop spot with DC and Goyf, so perhaps Hymn isn't a great fit either.Originally Posted by Asthereal
I guess it's a meta thing. Here in the Netherlands I am yet to encounter my first Miracles opponent in tournament play.
If Miracles is such a big thing, I would choose Envelop over Swan Song. Don't let yourself get killed by that swan token.
The Confidant lists are interesting. I love Stalker too much to switch just yet, but I'd be happy to hear other's thoughts on this.
EDIT: If I do a test run, it'll probably be with a list like this:
Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant /16
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil /25
Lands:
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland /19
Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm/Envelop
2 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Liliana of the Veil /15
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Has anyone run the Tombstalker/4 Hymn list with 19 Land (cutting the 9th fetch) and had success? I ask because I really want to jam the 41st spell in the main (Sylvan Library). Thoughts? Will the -1 fetch screw with the Deathrite acceleration and/or consistency of a stable mana base in a wasteland format?
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
I´m playing 19 lands since BoM8 last year November and I´m very happy with it, works fine. 20 lands is too much for me as flooding has been an issue for me too often... But getting to 2-3 lands in play has never been a problem for me with 19 lands and 8 cantrips. Also played 19 lands at GP Paris (6-2-1), and I´m not going to change that for BoM9 in May :)
What do people think in terms of sideboard options against something like 12 post? LftL? I was considering Winter Orb as well, given it's value vs. Miracles.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
I think it depends on your meta. Against Wasteland decks, you'll want that 20th land because you can't count on your DRS' surviving. When you sideboard vs non-Wasteland decks, you can always cut the 2nd Bayou (I notice Bob Huang doing that quite often in his sideboarding tips) so you can keep the 9 fetches in to feed Tombstalker/DRS.
Winter Orb seems fine against them. Life from the Loam seems good too to keep recurring Wastelands.
Quick clock + Wasteland = you have a good match-up vs. 12 Post.
Loam is good unless they Crop Rotate in Bojuka Bog.
Repeal will hit early Delvers.
You can probably cut some Abrupt Decay unless you are worried about Pithing Needle (on Wasteland) or Carpet of Flowers.
Needle on Top is good against 12 Post.
TA has a lot of tools to combat 12 Post - Quick clock, Wasteland, Discard, and Countermagic. Make sure that you can answer an early Show and Tell into Primeval Titan (they get the two lands off Show and Tell = not fair). Show and Tell = Eldrazi can be answered by Liliana.
I would be careful on the blind discard, at least in post-board games, as the most updated 12 Post lists have 4 Obstinate Baloths in the sideboard.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Since I'm on spring break now, I have some time to breathe. Also, I'm going to start testing this list as much as I can:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dark Confidant
3 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Some cards to take note of:
Dark Confidant - This guy has been great. I know he's good enough to play four of, but I feel two is fine. Too many of him in multiples is actually bad and he shines at his best in the late game where you have hopefully exhausted most of your opponent's resources so that he sticks and takes over the game. I kind of think of him as kind of filling the role sylvan library usually does for the deck, with the downside and upside of being a creature. My impression from initial testing is that he might be better than tombstalker in a meta with lots of swords to plowshare decks.
Split between Hymn and Thoughtseize - Thoughtseize has been pretty great as it gives me information and lets me take their best card. However, I still like the punch that hymn provides, thus the split. I don't play any more discard in the sideboard because I don't like siding in more only to lose to leyline of sanctity. Just a preference really.
Creeping Tarpit - My land to add postboard against wasteland with the upside of being a late game threat. I trimmed a land from the maindeck because I felt I flooded WAY too much with 20 lands. I haven't gotten too mana screwed so far but more testing needs to be done.
Marsh Casualties - This is replacing the golgari charm slots for now. Golgari Charm's a hell of a card, but I wanted a sweeper that didn't kill confidant and I saw this card in that TNN BUG list that top 8'ed GP Paris. The only problem is losing the versatility of charm, which I don't know if that is significant enough or not. The regen mode is not too relevant much of the time but the destroy enchatment mode has been pretty relevant much of the time. Takes pressure off Abrupt Decay to kill stuff like rest in peace and such.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - Another card I'm testing since it's been showing up in the confidant lists. I feel it fills the same role of sylvan library. I've been liking it so far in any fair matchup really that tends to be a grind.
Surgical Extraction - This is only in my sb as a meta call for my LGS. There's someone who plays tin fins that I'm currently 0-2 against lol. I would probably play other cards in their place at something like an SCG Open.
In regards to Legacy:
It all depends on what you are going to run up against. Your list is solid and could win against any deck.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I´d like to have this debate as well. Bob is great and it feels fantastic slamming it after you wrecked the opponent´s first cards with Hymns and AD and having used his removal for DRS/Delver/Goyf. All threats that need to be answered, so the more chance that Bob sticks. But why would you want to land a Bob when you can land a Tombstalker instead? Apart from preference (and maybe graveyard hate post board) I do not know. I'm very interested in your testing results!
Edit: Downside is of course running a full set of FoWs with the Bobs around... Although a small chance, this can get quite tricky. What are you guys thoughts on that?
Thanks. It does seem to still have that "game against everything" feel I got from playing the traditional Hymnstalker lists.
There are decks where I'd want Dark Confidant over Tombstalker and vice-versa. Against UWR I want Dark Confidant because the match-up tends be grindy since they have a slower clock than RUG and they have swords to plowshares. If my confidant's going to get killed at least it only took two mana and not two mana and some amount of cards from my graveyard. Against RUG I'd rather have Tombstalker because it trumps all their threats, they have a faster clock (meaning it's hard to use your life as a resource with confidant), and they cannot remove stalker as easily. I think it's all a combination of meta and preference. More testing needs to be done though. I think it's still possible to win with a Hymn stalker list in this meta. However, I'm really liking Dark Confidant with miracles potentially on the rise and UWR and Deathblade still at the top tables, all decks confidant is better against I think.
In regards to Legacy:
I do agree that most match ups Bob is better!
What about the TNN-Hymn list from GP Paris? I'm trying out TNNs and I'm not sure if they're better than Tombstalker or not. So far they've been fine.
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I think that they are a good replacement if one expects a lot of Miracles. TA hasn't had a creature with shroud since Nimble Mongoose. TNN renders their spot removal useless and makes Miracles find a Terminus or Supreme Verdict.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I'm fiddling around with a TNN list as well (pretty much just the stock list right now with 2 Lilianas in the main and 2 TNN instead of the Tombstalkers).
Of course, they've been much better vs the StP decks, but I have occasionally run into mana issues with them. I've gotten that hand before where you have 2 fetches and a Wasteland while having Hymn, TNN, and Tarmogoyf in your hand. I ended up fetching double Sea and ripped the green source when I needed it, but it did make me a little nervous having to rely on that. It's rare, but it'll happen occasionally.
The way I view TNN vs Tombstalker is that:
Tombstalker: Better vs RUG / fair decks that don't run StP. Much easier on your manabase to cast both in color and in playing through Daze / Wasteland. Doesn't get hit by your own Golgari Charms.
TNN: Better vs StP decks. Better vs SFM (it can block that Germ token all day!).
Both are horrible vs combo and should be boarded out at first opportunity!
Mainly I'm giving TNN a test right now because I find myself boarding out Tombstalker a lot vs almost every deck I've been running into (combo, white StP decks, white decks that run RIP, etc.) so I wanted to see if I could free up some sideboard slots with TNN.
Have tried TNN quite a bit vs. Miracles, and I have to say that it doesn't swing the match-up that much anyway. We just need to deploy our clocks one at a time, and since TNN is a slower clock it might even be worse in some situations. I'm not saying TNN is bad (because it really isn't even in our deck where we don't have EQs to make him really crazy), but playing it to beat Miracles is faulty in my book.
I like it a lot vs. other fair decks, not so much vs Miracles.
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I'm not saying it's a trump vs Miracles, but it's better than Tombstalker both because it can't be Plowed but also because it doesn't care about RIP.
I have been playing this since GP DC. I have played the TNN, Tombstalker and Bob lists. Here are my thoughts:
TNN: He excels in a metagame that is heavy on non-TNN fair decks, especially stoneforge decks like D&T. Opposing TNN bring his value down but he is still solid (UWR delver, etc). In a mature meta-game, most decks have 3-4 sideboard cards to deal with it, or are planning to kill before he is relevant. He is fine against miracles, as 3 cmc is challenging to counter with counterbalance, and he turns off plow. You can sit on him (and maybe one other threat) and force them to find a terminus, which you may be able to counter. Ultimately, I love him in stoneforge decks, but only rate him as ok in team america.
Tombstalker: He is great in a metagame with a lot of TNN as he races it favorably. He is weakest against decks that run rest in peace (or that type of effect) and against Jace decks, as a bounced tombstalker is almost certainly dead in your hand. While he is never countered by counterbalance, I don't like him against miracles at all because they have rest in peace, jace and swords along with Terminus or Entreats to invalidate him.
Dark Confidant: Having a card draw engine in tempo decks is very strong in general. He can be problematic against other tempo and aggro decks but excels against control or combo. Post board he loses a lot of value as all the TNN hate also kills him, along with the standard removal. He is solid against miracles because they are trying to grind you down until they assemble a winning board, so drawing even 1 extra card helps you immensely. It is worth noting that flipping a force against aggro or tempo decks can be a killer, as such I like only 3 maindeck forces in bob decks. This is especially true if your meta, like mine, has a lot of blue decks which limit the success of combo decks allowing you to 'cheat' slightly on your force of will count.
In the dark, at a large tournament I would play dark confidant. If you know your metagame, then the decision should be based on what you expect.
Here is my current list for those who are interested. Note that I went a little smaller trying to keep the cards moving and make Bob as good as possible. I think this approach is very strong, generally. I have also gone with a 2 thoughtseize, 3 hymn list as a way to keep a high number of early interaction spells. The information from probe as well as its cycling and low cmc have made me extremely happy with this decision. I have kept 2 golgari charms in my sideboard despite playing bob, since the other modes are relevant and if you really need to kill their board and happen to have bob in play, losing bob isn't the worst price to pay since he has almost certainly been in play for more than a turn when these situations arise (you rarely play him into a board you know you need to wrath). I don't fault people for preferring marsh casualties or additional edicts in these spots though.:
Creatures [14]
4 deathrite shaman
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 dark confidant
Sorceries [11]
4 Ponder
3 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
2 gitaxian probe
Instants [15]
4 brainstorm
4 abrupt decay
4 daze
3 force of will
Planeswalkers [1]
1 liliana of the viel
Lands [19]
3 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
2 verdant catacombs
2 tropical island
2 bayou
3 underground sea
4 wasteland
Sideboard [15]
1 force of will
1 flusterstorm
1 thoughtseize
1 vendilion clique
1 umezawa's jitte
2 golgari Charm
2 disfigure
1 krosan grip
1 maelstrom pulse
2 spell pierce
1 grafdigger's cage
1 surgical extration
Additional cards I keep with the deck for tuning purposes based on what I except in each tournament 1 engineered explosives, 2 duress, 1 surgical extraction (#2), 2 nihil spellbomb, 1 hymn to tourach (#4), 2 liliana of the veil (#2-3).
how do you guys fight miracles. That matchup has been very difficult for me
Play Turbo Eldrazi or Deedstill.
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