List of Compact Combos

[TsumiBand]

Funny, yes, but it suffers from the same flaw as playing with Karoo lands and Amulet of Vigor -- you should not make your deck out of bad cards that become not bad if and only if you assemble your combo!

Are you suggesting that Aether Storm is more playable than Suppression Field? :D
I know SF and KotHN are not amaze balls.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[DragoFireheart]

Lili +1 & Energy Field is a non-bo. Let it rain (although I prefer snow).

You don't have to use her ability if you by some strange reason end up in this situation. Wait for that RiP.

[ahg113]

You don't have to use her ability if you by some strange reason end up in this situation. Wait for that RiP.

You ducked the Telemin Performance scenario, because you know I have you dead to rights. Exactly.

Edit: I might've mentioned it before but...

Goblin Trenches + Oath of Lieges/Land Tax - as long as your opponent has played at least 2 lands (so maybe discount Belcher, Manaless Dredge and Oops all Spells) you can always search for land to put into play, thinning your deck, getting shuffles, and making dorks.

I have no idea how this is supposed to win a game over the long haul, but damned if I haven't tried.

[DragoFireheart]

You ducked the Telemin Performance scenario, because you know I have you dead to rights. Exactly.

There's no way I could argue the power of Telemin Performance. Resistance is futile.

[Megadeus]

But it dies to Telemin Performance. I don't think it's that good.

Lili +1 & Energy Field is a non-bo. Let it rain (although I prefer snow).

With counterbalance trigger on the stack, cast e tutor fetching up curse of deaths hold. Duh.

[FTW]

With counterbalance trigger on the stack, cast e tutor fetching up curse of deaths hold. Duh.

Research for Phage the Untouchable.

[MaximumC]

I got some more awesomesauce for this thread.

So you got either Viscid Lemures or the significantly cuter Hyalopterous Lemure in play. Hopefully you also have an unblockable creature sitting around, too. Activate the ability a million times. Now cast Ichor Explosion or Call for Blood and sack a Lemure to give the rest of your creatures -(-1,000,000) / - (-1,000,000) until end of turn. Swing with that unblockable dude for the win!

P.S. I'm not sure this works, but math says it should. Also, I have no idea what Disciple of Bolas does when faced with a -1,000,000/1 creature.

P.P.S. Yes, yes, things are easier with Hopping Automoton and Magical Hacker, but that requires going into the Un-sets.

[Tyrio]

I got some more awesomesauce for this thread.

So you got either Viscid Lemures or the significantly cuter Hyalopterous Lemure in play. Hopefully you also have an unblockable creature sitting around, too. Activate the ability a million times. Now cast Ichor Explosion or Call for Blood and sack a Lemure to give the rest of your creatures -(-1,000,000) / - (-1,000,000) until end of turn. Swing with that unblockable dude for the win!

P.S. I'm not sure this works, but math says it should. Also, I have no idea what Disciple of Bolas does when faced with a -1,000,000/1 creature.

P.P.S. Yes, yes, things are easier with Hopping Automoton and Magical Hacker, but that requires going into the Un-sets.

107.1b Most of the time, the Magic game uses only positive numbers and zero. You can't choose a negative number, deal negative damage, gain negative life, and so on. However, it's possible for a game value, such as a creature's power, to be less than zero. If a calculation or comparison needs to use a negative value, it does so. If a calculation that would determine the result of an effect yields a negative number, zero is used instead, unless that effect sets a player's life total to a specific value, doubles a player's life total, sets a creature's power or toughness to a specific value, or otherwise modifies a creature's power or toughness.

[FTW]

If a calculation that would determine the result of an effect yields a negative number, zero is used instead, unless ... sets a creature's power or toughness to a specific value, or otherwise modifies a creature's power or toughness.

If P/T modifications allow for negative values and the "negative --> zero" only happens when determining the result of an effect, not intermediate calculations, doesn't that mean the combo would work, because creatures can have negative power and the result is a positive number? I thought it wouldn't (it would count as 0), but a literal interpretation of that rule seems to suggest otherwise.

[Technics]

I would THINK that the result is the value of X, in which case you calculate X, find it is negative, adjust it to 0, then THEN apply the -x/-x. You don't get to take the X as a negative value, and then apply the -X/-X first, and consider that effect as your result.

[TsumiBand]

If one Google searches for "tabak 'negative power' mtg" one finds a handful of rulings which confirm that for the proposes of calculating the actual power of creatures when negative numbers apply, they work as you would expect; Feral Animist or Chameleon Colossus would, if burdened with negative power, have twice that much negative power when their effects resolve.
The 'negative as zero' rule only occurs when the power is actively 'doing work' instead of being passively referenced. So, while a creature with -40 power does not deal negative damage, it would work exceptionally well with Call for Blood.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Technics]

If one Google searches for "tabak 'negative power' mtg" one finds a handful of rulings which confirm that for the proposes of calculating the actual power of creatures when negative numbers apply, they work as you would expect; Feral Animist or Chameleon Colossus would, if burdened with negative power, have twice that much negative power when their effects resolve.
The 'negative as zero' rule only occurs when the power is actively 'doing work' instead of being passively referenced. So, while a creature with -40 power does not deal negative damage, it would work exceptionally well with Call for Blood.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulesti...lity-resolves/

Looks like this does work. Asking some judges for an official ruling just to be sure, but that seems like it's pretty official.

[MaximumC]

I find it really interesting that Magic only allows negative numbers to be "applied" to the game state in four situations:

1. Setting a life total
2. Doubles a life total
3. Sets power / toughness
4. Modifies power / toughness

I get how you can't destroy a negative number of permanents or draw a negative number of cards. But what does the game mean when it says you are "doubling" a life total using a negative value...? Doesn't doubling imply we're working with positive 2 here?

EDIT: I think this also means that hitting a -1,000,000 / 2 creature with Disciple of Bolas results in you drawing 0 cards and losing a million life. GG

[FTW]

I get how you can't destroy a negative number of permanents or draw a negative number of cards. But what does the game mean when it says you are "doubling" a life total using a negative value...? Doesn't doubling imply we're working with positive 2 here?

Suppose you have Platinum Angel out and your life total is -10. If an effect resolves that doubles your life total, then your life would become -10*2=-20. That's still using positive 2 but can yield a negative number, resulting in life loss instead of life gain. Pretty corner case.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah it is weird. I guess it's like a pointer, kind of?? This is why I don't write C code, because pointers kind of challenge my understanding of everything (not really, I just have no idea when to use them and when not to, apart from passing-by-reference, but that's … me off on a tilt)

Basically it seems like the game tries to make sure you can only do things which can actually be done with negative numbers. So, yeah, if you're destroying -2 permanents, that's not analogous to any other kind of game action - the opposite of destroying a permanent is not "returning a permanent" from the graveyard or exile or anything else. I cannot assign -2 damage to something; there's prevention, and there's counter distribution, and there's a bunch of effects which remove damage or bolster damage or what-have-you, but there is not a way to realistically deal truly negative damage. And really, the opposite of drawing cards is not discarding; you cannot actually perform an action which is the functional equivalent of drawing negative cards.

A situation where something would lose or gain power, toughness, or life however -- these are all easily translated into "doable" things. I can gain -2 life because I can represent 20 + (-2).

I wonder how this jives with triggered abilities. If I gain negative life, does my Ajani's Pridemate trigger? Or does the game turn this event into "player lost X life" for the purposes of triggers, etc? The rules do not seem to specify, or I have simply not seen an answer. If "player gains -1 life' is a gain-life trigger, I wonder if there is something weirdly exploitable there. Hmm.

EDIT -- according to my local Judge/friend 'negative life gain' will not trigger Ajani's Pridemate because the game sees a net loss of life and that is what matters. Makes sense.

[FTW]

EDIT -- according to my local Judge/friend 'negative life gain' will not trigger Ajani's Pridemate because the game sees a net loss of life and that is what matters. Makes sense.

Yeah those triggers look at the net result, not the wording of the effect. So if you double your (positive) life total, Pridemate sees that as a life gain even though the card doesn't explicitly say "gain _ life".

Sadly this doesn't apply to +1/+1 counters, since -1/-1 counters are a different object. I've always wanted to make a Kalonian Hydra double the number of -1/-1 counters on it or somehow remove its own +1/+1 counters.

[MaximumC]

Suppose you have Platinum Angel out and your life total is -10. If an effect resolves that doubles your life total, then your life would become -10*2=-20. That's still using positive 2 but can yield a negative number, resulting in life loss instead of life gain. Pretty corner case.

Hm. The way I read the rule, any multiplier other than 2 falls outside this exception, and so the result is translated into positive terms.

So, for example, if I have a Platinum Angel out at -10 life, and I resolve an effect which TRIPLES my life total, then 107 would leave me with POSITIVE 30 life. I think. Of course, this assumes they don't simply modify the rules once they print a card that triples life totals. This isn't totally wacky; they've dabbled in multiplication before. See: that legendary wurm with devour X from Planechase.

If they ever printed something that did multiply your life and didn't change the rules, then Ad Naseum + Angel's Grace + Martyrs of Korlis may get a new buddy.

[TsumiBand]

The only other one i can think of is Burn at the Stake which is 'three times the number of creatures' so it can't produce a negative. Interesting that 'doubling' has a distinction from 'multiplying'.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[rufus]

...Suppose you have Platinum Angel out and your life total is -10. If an effect resolves that doubles your life total, then your life would become -10*2=-20. That's still using positive 2 but can yield a negative number, resulting in life loss instead of life gain. Pretty corner case.

Angel's Grace+Ad Nauseam -> Death's Shadow+Fling is almost a sensible way to win.

... Interesting that 'doubling' has a distinction from 'multiplying'.

There's no multiplying in magic.

[FTW]

There's no multiplying in magic.

Tell that to Rhys the Redeemed EDH.