Tim and I really have taken the deck into different hate-avenues, both of which work, showing the raw power of the deck.Originally Posted by TimHarding
I think Revoker main is a meta call that gives you a stronger game versus sneaky show, Storm, and elves, but leaves you vulnerable to Wasteland and revoker-less combo decks where FOW would be stronger, ie Belcher, Omni, Dredge.
I beat Combo by attacking with a 2/1 for 10 turns, no lie. Tim beats it similarly, with Glen Elendra and Oracle, so sacrificing early advantage in the form of FOW for late advantage in multi-card advantage 4 drops. Both plans work great, I just have a preference for the revoker's consistency, but I am certainly aware of its weaknesses and how it is an extreme meta call.
Nice to join the club, do you have some cookies there? Lol.
Reguarding top: there's an old saying in magic that states that if you want to see a card in every game in multiple play 4 copies, but if you want to see a card in every game but not like to draw multiples then play 3. I think top is one of those cards, since every copy after the first is basically a cantrip if you have a shuffle effect, otherwise it doesn't have a big impact: just to be clear, the second it's not very bad because you can find some applications (for example there may be a turn where you would need 2 cards from the top of the deck) but I find the other cards on the list more useful.
Moreover it can also be fetched by trinket mage in case the opponent gets rid of it (krosan grip, decay with a shuffle effect on the stack, ...).
Since you mention the combo matchup, in theory the depths combo should improve it since you can side out most of the win conditions (S&T, Eldrazi, Titans, whatever needed), side in more control elements (counters, needles and the like) and still have a 2 card win condition in the deck. Moreover it should be also faster than the other win conditions which can matters.
This brings me to the next point: sideboard strategies. Given my list list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post800919) what should be your sideboard plans? I'd say:
Jund: +2 baloth, +1 needle, -1 candelabra, -1 emrakul, -1 show and tell, maybe -1 bojuka, +1 surgical
Reasons: baloth for liliana and hymn, needle for DRS, liliana and wasteland
RUG: +1 needle, -1 karakas, maybe -1 bojuka, +1 surgical
Reasons: Karakas is unuseful, needle protects against wasteland which is the biggest threat. I would like to side in the flusterstorm too (mainly for stifle), but I don't know what to side out
BUG delver: +1 needle, -1 karakas
Reasons: needle is for DRS, wasteland and liliana. I would like to bring in the baloth but I don't know what to side out, maybe trinket?
Miracle: +1 needle, +3 surgical, -1 candelabra, -1 depths, -1 thespian, -1 repeal
Reasons: we are not in a hurry and they don't play wasteland, so candelabra is not needed. Depths combo is not so strong because of swords and terminus with brainstorm/top. Needle is for jace (and topthers if they play it), surgical is for snapcaster but mainly for messing with their brainstorm and tops and miracles. Question: do you name top with needle if you don't have one in play?
Reanimator: +4 swan song, +2 flusterstorm, +3 surgical, -1 needle, -2 trinket, -2 repeal, -4 show and tell
Reasons: I'd leave 2 repeals and the explosives in for their pithing needles
Lands: +3 surgical, +1 needle, -1 explosives, ... please help T_T
Any help is appreciated.
Ps: Tim, What would you take out for chalice of the void?
Last edited by kingtk3; 03-22-2014 at 11:23 AM.
Ignorance is strength
I think Sensei's Divining Top is one of those cards where you hate running 4 and would rather run 3 but you have to run 4 because it is a counter magnet and is a huge player in some matchups such as Jund or BUG.
Generally when I play vs. Combo my goal isn't to try and win, but rather to try and survive until you can just outright win and there's no possibility for them to come back. Depths combo just seems like it takes up too much space and isn't even really that good because it's a bit too slow vs. combo. I would much rather play it in a deck dedicated to winning that way. If you can get 30 mana to get the Marit Lage, then I would just get Emrakul for 2/3 of that mana.
My opinions on your board strategies:
Jund: I disagree with boarding out Candelabra, it is a decay magnet but they have to decay it or risk losing because the card is just THAT potent. This allows yourself a chance for the needles to survive. I would never board out Emrakul in any matchup, it is simply too good as a win condition. I think I would also board out Show and Tell for the Flusterstorm and Obstinate Baloth to help with Hymn to Tourach and such. I usually wish G1 that the Show and Tells were Flusters and Baloths game 1.
RUG: Karakas isn't completely dead because it helps with the infinite combo with emrakul which is relevant in some cases. Also if you do the math there are only 20 lands that tap for mana in the deck. Karakas is a source of mana that enters untapped and is generally pretty good. Not worth boarding it out for Needles which isn't even that good in the matchup. I also wouldn't board out Bojuka Bog because it is relevant vs. Goyf and Mongoose.
Miracles: This is one of our best matchups and we probably don't even need to board but we board because why the hell not. I disagree with some things you said though. Candelabra IS relevant because they are going to board in Back to Basics and also allows us to accelerate faster. Needles is ok to board in in place of Engineered Explosives. I sometimes name top with needles, I sometimes don't. Usually I do but the matchup is so easy that it really doesn't matter.
Reanimator: I don't know of any reanimator deck that has pithing needle.
Lands: Board out the depths combo and candelabra. They aren't very good in this matchup.
12-post Discord: https://discord.gg/QxYVg3g
Played yesterday for the 1st time the deck. Anf went 3-2.
But today I tweaked the list and played. 50 ppl event.
Enden 1/2nd.
I like the deck cause turn 4 emrakul previus search with ugin.
Or ulamog karaks. Ulamog. Candelabra bounce gain with karakas and and cast a 3rd time ulamog is cool.
All this happened today.
Emrakul
Ulamog
4 titan
2 mul daya
4 show
3 repeal
3 map
3 crop
4 brainstorm
4 sensei
3 pithing
2 cabdelabra
Bojuka
Karakas
Glacial
Cavern
Ugin
2 vesuva
4 glimer
4 cloud
2 island
1 forest
4 tropi
4 misty
4 fluster
4 swansong
4 fow
3 krossan
1-1 canadian
2-0 stoneforge deck
2-1 burn
1-2 canadian
2-0 taxes
2-0 esper
Top 8
1-2 bug control
2-0 miracles
Pact with reanimator
Sure everyone is seeing the mono green 12post list at SCG LA. Fun to watch!
Looks like a miraculous dodging on combo, because the ONLY combo hate they are running is Teeg sideboard and Sanctity.
I do enjoy Into the North ramping into snow-covered forest and Dark Depths. Modern tech. I might try a similar build with revokers to make up for missing protection.
The first Dark Depths build I've seen that I enjoyed.
::EDIT:: Some great ideas from the mono green list though. GSZ might merit reinvestigation just as a wild growth. I also might check out Natural Order again, with dryad arborx2 and Khalni Garden as easy generators.
Last edited by Rock Lee; 03-24-2014 at 02:37 AM.
Hey, i've always been tempted by Dryad Arbor too, what have kept me away from that is the idea of giving our opponent a target for multiple removals that may be lying in their hands forever. Zenith into Dryad is huge, but in case this "combo" does not shows up in early turns, we risk having to play suboptimal lands, easy destructible, which paired with a wasteland or so could really ruin our day.
On the other hand, the idea of istant-fetching for dryad in response to a Liliana-edict in order to save our titan is huge too!
I am legitimately surprised this development didn't receive more discussion today. I am also curious as to whether John Kassari has an account on here, because I'd love to hear more from his perspective. This tournament featured Manaless Dredge, Belcher and Food Chain as Top 8 decks. I didn't get to see any of the tournament. I find it interesting that Kassari used a single copy of both in-and-out sweepers: Oblivion Stone and All Is Dust. I do love Sacred Ground and would also like to hear more about how he sideboarded.
I won't be able to pick up Leylines before tomorrow so I won't sleeve this one up just yet, but still, it's very interesting in that it runs neither blue nor Candels.
What I find more fantastical was the singleton sources of white mana for the board splash - Karakas and Savannah. Because I have to say, that SB was pretty ingenious.
I missed the deck in action, but I dug up the deck list for analysis: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65245.
3rd Place is great. By the way, I don't know where SCG keeps their archive footage, so if anyone wants to post videos as well, please feel free.
Last edited by Mockingbird; 03-27-2014 at 11:08 PM.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
That mono-G deck has so many fun things about it! I hope to see a report link. I've had a soft spot for GSZ, but every step I make towards that list has a noticeable effect on the combo MU.. I think the mono G decks move through the field like Lands does, with a better top gear. Dodging SnT combo.
However it's going to take a hell of a lot of convincing to get me to drop 3 Blue Playsets of spells which have been the only serious candidates for legacy banning.
I'm guessing his combo matchup may partially have to do with how often he draws Teeg, as Teeg would keep you safe from all sorts of Storm, while also stopping Sneak Attack and Through the Breach...and even Force of Will. Everyone knows the terror Griselbrand feels when he encounters his greatest weakness: grass. I also love Moment's Peace as it's at least partially counterspell-resistant. Creeping Corrosion is the only card that really surprises me. Maybe he feared all sorts of robots or something? It's the only card I'm not particularly sure about.
Leyline alone will not protect you from storm.
Teeg alone will not stop storm.
Teeg AND leyline will keep storm busy finding abrupt decay for teeg, then he will cast ad nauseam, draw or tutor for chain of vapor and win.
I think the mono green plan here is to buy time to assemble the depths combo, otherwise the deck is too slow for combo.
That's why I like in general the idea of having a fast two card fetchable combo against other combos
Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.
Ignorance is strength
I'm interested in attacking for 20 instead of 2 against combo haha. In your build, what came out to make room for depths and stage?
Marit Lage was neat against combo yesterday: I was always untapped for brainstorm/top/counters/repeal sheningans and when I had the chance I crop rotated for depths (thespian was previously fetched by a map) and won on the spot.
I also found how nicely thespians interacts with cloudpost (obviously) and glacial chams: after the upkeep trigger goes on the stack I copied chasm with thespian and I didn't lost a single life. If you have crop rotation is even better ^_^.
I played 2 ponders and I decided to swap them for the depths combo. I'm playing 2 trinket mage though and maybe I'll try the ponders in their place again: still unsure however.
Yesterday I went to a small tournament: I won against combo (elves) with depths and with Jund, while loosing against patriot (he admitted himself that he had very good draws and that I was unlucky not drawing lands for a couple of turns) and, as usual, BUG.
I'm serious, it's like I've never won against BUG, being it the version with delver, or cascade or whatever: I really need to understand better this mathcup because I'm sure I'm playing wrong.
Ignorance is strength
Same here. I was playing Tim's list with -1 Prime Time (I draw them way, way, way, way too often) and +1 Kozilek and I smashed every match I played except BUG Delver, losing to two different BUG players. I've noted a couple things in my time playing against BUG variants:
1. Hymn to Tourach always rips at least one land out of my hand. If I'm holding two lands, Hymn gets both of them, and then I get sad.
2. If I resolve Show and Tell, the game is basically over.
Shardless BUG also follows the two above rules, but I win much more frequently because the deck, for lack of a better term, durdles. Matches take longer (and take more turns), and the more turns pass, the better our deck generally does.
I always bring in Flusterstorm against BUG and I find it works really well. I like to respond to Hymn by casting something, hoping to draw a counter. If the player takes the bait - which is often the case - I use one more blue mana to Flusterstorm. I had that exact line of play yesterday, since thankfully Hymn didn't come Turn 2. He went for Hymn, I cast Repeal on Tarmogoyf in response. He used his last blue to Spell Pierce, and I got both cards with Flusterstorm for two mana on each.
I've recently been exploring a couple of UG lists that incorporate the depths combo as a faster way to win vs non-white decks. It's been quite good in some of the faster matchups since it only takes 4 lands, only 2 of which are specific, to go off. Show and tell->primetime-> depths/stage has also been a viable way to close out the game a bit faster against jund when they have a lili already on board. Another aspect is that after grabbing a chasm, you lose 2 mana producing lands which tends to severely hinder getting to eldrazi mana. In these scenarios, I've found assembling the stage/depths combo to be easier to pull off.
Creatures (6)
4x Primeval Titan
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Atorn
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Spells (29)
3x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Repeal
4x Crop Rotation
4x Brainstorm
3x Show and Tell
2x Into the North
Lands (26)
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
1x Vesuva
1x Thespian's Stage
4x Tropical Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
2x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Karakas
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Dark Depths
Im not sure how much I like into the north right now. Those are two slots that I've been working with. I've tried ponder and ee in those slots as well and both seemed a bit weak. Ponder was nice to have a shuffle effect, but that was pretty much all it provided me. That was nice, but fairly low impact for this deck. EE has been either great or terrible: a lot of the times, this decks operates off of 1 colored sourced for most of the game so ee-ing for 2 has occasionally been a problem in crunch times (wanting to take jund's confidant+goyf). However, I might move back to it as it does offer a lot of potential utility in this deck. Lastly, I might change the strand to a bojuka bog just to have some md'd graveyard hate. I'm just not all that comfortable working with another etb tapped land in this already fragile manabase.
PS: I REALLY want chasm to be a snow-covered land. I mean...its a GLACIAL CHASM. Literally a chasm in a bunch of snow/ice -_-. Petition wizards for an errata.
Been pittering with this red SB splash.
// Lands
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Forest (4)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [R] Taiga
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [R] Island
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [GP] Repeal
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [R] Volcanic Island
SB: 2 [AVR] Bonfire of the Damned
SB: 3 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [M11] Obstinate Baloth
SB: 2 [REL] Sudden Shock
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
@somethingdotdotdot and others who have played with into the north,
is it really better than sylvan scrying? sure it ramps you, but grabbing a cloudpost that i can't play until next turn will often ramp me harder than a snow-covered forest that i get to put onto the battlefield this turn. not to mention sylvan scrying finds eye, bog, glimmerpost, karakas, chasm, etc., etc.
i play a more traditional UG list w/ candels, BS, and S+T, but i'd really like to make the switch to a mono-green stage/depths list. if anyone has experience with monogreen lists, drop some wisdom on me!
It's for Dark Depths.
So did the Dark Depths plan not working to your liking? And what happened to Khalni Garden?
Last edited by Mockingbird; 03-29-2014 at 10:30 AM.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
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