It was countered, because it mattered. He wouldn't of countered it if it didn't matter.Originally Posted by max_goblin
Oh yeah, good call, I'm not sure if I did or not. If so then I obviously went for the wrong target there.
Yup, that is definitely her. I just realized she also wrote up primers for Reanimator, Belcher, Stax, Burn, Zoo, and Pox as well as High Tide. What a machine! She was very good at playing her deck.
Oh yeah, I forgot about this, there are quite a few Squires running around that will only be able to chump Lackey if we're able to Mox out an early Chieftain.
Dread of Night seems very narrow, especially when Sharpshooter does work againt stuff like Empty The Warrens, Bob, and other non-white weenies. Plus he's a goblin, of course. Honestly, besides Therapy and Chalice, I'm pretty sure I want my entire sideboard to be type - Goblin.
He was definitely not on a normal, streamlined Reanimator list because he was running control stuff like Lilly and the Hexmage/Dark Depths combo. I thought about Chalice but it didn't seem super good. You're right though, Therapy might have been worth squeezing in.
I think she had a High Tide or two in her hand already, so that wouldn't have been a very good pull with the Earwig.
Thanks! Yeah, I had Kiki straight off of Winstigator, otherwise I could have tutored up another Matron or Ringleader before the bolt resolved.
Yeah, I had a turn 1 play with one fetch and one non-land fetch to start with. I was just on auto-pilot and used the fetch first for thinning purposes and didn't realize my mistake till he dropped the TNN. In Legacy you really have to pay attention to every detail. I have thought about Auntie's Hovel, but I'm not quite sure if it's better than the ability to go for basics when facing down a Wasteland. Plus a fetch or two before the Ringleaders start chaining can add some slight advantage.
Yeah, the more I think about it, you guys are right, Ringleader can certainly come out against Belcher, I'll remember that going forward. Should have just loaded up with 4 Chalice, 4 Therapy, 2 Earwig, 4 Scrapper, 2 Sharpshooter for my best chances to win.
Thanks! I think I like the full set of Badlands because while I do like fetching early for either a Badlands or a Mountain depending on what I'm facing and whether or not I need to cast something black, I don't like fetching once I've started chaining Ringleaders unless I absolutely have to. Plus, in the fair matchups, every life point IS relevant, especially if many times our only plan against TNN is to race it (when they have too many other guys around to sack to a Weirding). Because of this, I think 4 Badlands/4 Fetch is a good split.
Olaf is right on this one, I didn't actually do much Vialing on Sunday, but when it was countered, it was countered because it would have mattered. Wasteland was also important in multiple games, not only did it lead to the turn two scoop by the second Jund player in round five, but left the Delver deck with no lands in round eight. I also didn't mention every single time I wasted a land, it happens quite often, it just wasn't always a key play like in those two examples.
Anyway, I like having four copies of both Vial and Wasteland in the deck, I wouldn't skimp on them.
I mentioned that Vial got countered precisely because it mattered. If I thought it didn't matter, I wouldn't even have mentioned it. To further clarify, except for the times that you mentioned Vial was countered, there is no indication in your report of Vial doing anything important, and your latest comment confirms that to be the case.
The deck obviously worked for you anyway, I just wanted to point that out.
I have tried playing with Vial and Chrome Mox in Goblins before, and I always found the combined card disadvantage to be too much against fair decks in general, and decks with discard in particular. And if I am going to side out Vial out against decks with discard, and against combo decks, like you did, I think there is a case to be made for playing fewer Vials, or maybe none.
Nice report have you been on camera with the deck?
Iam going to a legacy tournament next sunday with the following list: Its for 90% a copy of millers goblin deck
Land 23
4 wasteland
4 cavern of souls
4 bloodstained mire
2 rishadan ports
2 mountain
2 wooded foothills
2 arid mesa
2 taiga
1 plateau
creatures
4x goblin lackey
4x goblin ring leader
4x goblin matron
.. gempalm incinerators
6x hastelords
3x tin street hooligans
1x sharpshooter
1x stingscourger (extra card to take out a blocker turn 2) also it works on show and tell and it can bounce larger creatures)
1x SGC
1x Krenko Mob Boss
others
4x aether vial
.. tarfire
sideboard:
4x ashen rider (show and tell)
3x relic of progentius (reanimator, dredge, tarmogoyf, storm, DRS)
4x thalia guardian of thraben (combo and decks the play a lot of non creature spells)
3x krosan grip (Jitte, Batterskull, engineerd plague, ensnarring bridge)
1x rest in peace (reanimator, dredge, tarmogoyf, storm, DRS)
Only thing iam not sure about is:
how many warchiefs vs. how many chieftains
the same counts for gempalm incinerators vs. tarfire (iam think of 4 gempamls (the draw ability of gempalm is verry good) en 2 tarfires especially because of krenko, although tarfire takes out every blocker on turn 2)
Note: In my meta i expect a lot of delver decks next to a load of SFM decks (last tournaments 20% of the decks involved SFM).
I would like to get some feedback about the right numbers. And maby some choises that i made.
thx in advance
Fantastic tournament report. Thanks for putting in the time and the effort.
You've convinced me to test Kiki-Jiki, the one 'Big Guy' I don't yet own. It does sound amazing with 8 Lackey effects -- and I had completely overlooked copying Tuktuk.
How often were you able to hit on both ends of the Therapy? I absolutely love Therapy with Mogg War Marshal, but in this build there aren't any 1- or 2- drop goblins I want to sacrifice to flashback; Matron could be too slow for the job. Would Thoughtseize be okay in that slot, or a 2/2 split?
Feline is a tremendous player and has won at least one SCG Open with High Tide. You did well to beat her, especially not being familiar with the deck. High Tide players typically board out 1 copy of High Tide to protect from Extractions and make it Wishable. But extracting the three in the deck does potentially slow them down a lot.
Last edited by Sockosensei; 03-26-2014 at 09:47 AM.
5 of my 9 matches were against some form of combo, so I did side Vial out a lot, but I do think we want 12 "one drops" (including mox -> winstigator) in the deck. Being able to drop uncounterable goblins into play during the attack step or during our opponents turn is very good. Hands without a Lackey, Vial or Winstigator are almost always a mulligan.
Thanks! Honestly, forgetting to flashback my Therapy's was a recurring mistake I kept making, luckily for me it didn't really end up mattering. But finding the goblin to sacrifice for flashback shouldn't' be that hard. Matron, Ringleader, an extra (or mid game) Lackey, even Kiki-Jiki tokens all work out just fine. I don't think I would want to go to Thoughseize unless I was trying to jam more than 4 discard spells in the deck.
See, here's where I've had trouble.
It's very easy to mull those hands and then have your six include double Mox, or even Instigator + Mox but only one other creature which you may need to put on the Mox anyway. That puts a lot of pressure on your Ringleaders to draw you back in, if you see a Ringleader to begin with; it's even more so without Gempalms. These situations have come up an awful lot for me. Perhaps Kiki is the difference here, giving you double value off of key cards?
If you're facing Storm, Belcher, SI, or any other quick combo, you really need to *hit* with Therapy, and even that may not be enough. What is the cost of missing? Finding goblins to sac mid game is no problem, but in the first two turns it's rough as you also need to keep the clock going. I'm not arguing the power of Therapy--it's awesome--just whether it fits our needs here. What matchups are people bringing it in for aside from combo matchups?Thanks! Honestly, forgetting to flashback my Therapy's was a recurring mistake I kept making, luckily for me it didn't really end up mattering. But finding the goblin to sacrifice for flashback shouldn't' be that hard. Matron, Ringleader, an extra (or mid game) Lackey, even Kiki-Jiki tokens all work out just fine. I don't think I would want to go to Thoughseize unless I was trying to jam more than 4 discard spells in the deck.
Well.. this is not the case but.. that isnt always true. Just because someone cast their FoW into something, this dont means that they made the right call.
Anyway, instead of only saying narrow minded things I did some search in his report and he talked about vial 7 times. 4 of them he leaved his vials at sideboard, and in 3 situations it got destroyed:
1 against jund
1 FoW'ed agasint Delver
1 FoW'ed against Delver
Vial is relevant in this match ups? Yes ok, but so is tarfire!
I am not saying, cut vial out, just saying, Hey, perhaps vial isnt that much right now.. few people playing counters.. a lot more removal.. a lot more creatures in the table.. I guess we should really start to think about our field and not only in what we used to play.
Anyway, if I have the time to play some goblins again, I will try to cut vials from the deck and see what happens =]
if shit happens, at least, we will know.
Cya
...and shit will happen.
I had the same impression on Aether Vial in the past few months, which is why I frequently boarded it out, sometimes I just wanted to know how it works. In my last tournament I faced 0 combo decks and boarded out Vial every Game 2 (I must have been thinking something like, "hey, let's try it") and it was horrible. I had to re-take that lesson where I learned how Essential Vial is for the deck. Counter-proofness is admittedly the least important reason to include it. BUt with a manacurve as high as our'S we can't really afford NOT running it. Also, GOblins with Flash are much more scary than Goblin with Sorcery-speed. We are way less threatening when we are reduced to playing only 1 creature each turn (which is likely the case when you don't have a Vial online).
For reference. Also note ScatmanX's reply to my posting.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Kiki was helpful in gaining back card advantage, for sure. Hitting with Therapy is important, and I did lose to Belcher when I didn't hit one game, by the time I was able to flashback it was too late.
I actually like when people use stuff like abrupt decay on it, as that just means there's less removal targeting goblins. Also there are still infinite decks with FoW and Daze. Feel free to try the deck without them (or with fewer), but I'm keeping the full set.
Has anyone tried Goblin Settler yet? I'm thinking about picking up a copy to try instead of Lighting Crafter. It would be a great target for Kiki-Jiki!
Yes, it was a reply about some post I did, so I remember it. But one thing is just side it out, in some matches and see what happens, another thing is build it to dont rely on vial. Ok, when I say, bring vial down to 3, you dont need to build the whole deck around this, but if you manage to cut it out.. well that is a complete different story.
Oh, btw, I not saying ANYONE should stop playing vial. If you want you can play with Goblin wizard, I dont care, have fun. Just trying to look at a different point of view and see what happens, but seriosly, even if it works, dont mean people have to follow... if we had to do such a thing we should probably stop playing goblins and move to some Blade.deck or S&S, since people think that this are optimal choices for championships.
But we love the green man, so lets just try to make the best from it.
Cya.
I love the discussions going on! So quick questions. Which version of goblins is better against which decks? RW Thalia Goblins vs RB Winstigator. It seems like Winstigator is better against combo/racing where as Thalia RW is better for grinding. Is that a correct assumption? If so, then the build is metagame dependent, right?
Hi everyone, I had an interestin g2 versus storm a couple of days ago, and wanted to hear your opinion on it. The game started with me playing a lackey, who met an abrupt decay of an underground sea and a lotus petal. On my t2 I wastelanded my opponent, and after that I was stuck on one land and my opponent on 0 for a while. At one point I discarded a cabal therapy during cleanup, and the next turn is where things got interesting. I played a surgical extraction on my opponents abrupt decay mainly to get information on his hand. He revealed 2 preordain, 1 tendrils, 1 massacre. I had two lands, but no black source, a cabal therapy in hand, a cabal therapy in the graveyard, and a chalice, a piledriver, and a relic of progenitus in hand (those were the most relevant cards). I chose to play piledriver to flashback therapy for tendrils, since I had seen he had no other wincons, and next turn relic of progenitus would lock him out of the game. Other options included playing chalice for one, and playing relic of progenitus to empty my opponents graveyard (which had a lot of cards in it). My opponent also had an LED in play. what do you thin about this situation, what line of play would be correct?
to summarize:
Opponents hand: 2 preordain, 1 tendrils, 1 massacre
Opponents board: LED
Opponents gy: bunch of stuff
My hand: piledriver, chalice, cabal therapy, relic
My board: mountain, wasteland.
My gy: cabal therapy
Interesting!
First of all I had cast Surgical Extraction on Underground Sea, not on Abrupt Decay.
Your hand has only 1 Creature. That means: playing Piledriver to flashback Therapy, casting Relic and cracking it next turn to remove Tendrils has two disadvantages. (1) You give up 100% of your damage-output. (2) Tendrils might no be the only wincondition he has (well, that actually depends on what you saw while browsing through his deck).
Casting Chalice @ 1 shuts down BOTH of your Therapies AND you have to cast your Relic before, which costs you 2 turns. Casting Chalice @1 does not seem very attractive here. However, since you already extracted his Decays you might set it @ 1 immediately (don't know what other kind of bounce-spells you saw browsing through his deck). His only Storm engine then is Past in Flames, which doesn't work all too well with few lands and when he can only flashback Cabal Rituals for mana.
As I said, it depends on what your opponent has left in the deck.
Is Tendrils his only remaining Wincondition?
Yes: Cast Piledriver, flashback Therapy naming Tendrils. Next turn cast Relic and leave 1 mana open to react to whatever can make him re-cast Tendrils. This line of play is 100% save, because it is impossible for him to go off with 2 preordain, 1 massacre, 1 whatevercardhemaydrawnextturn in hand and only a LED in play.
No: Cast Relic. Next turn, cast Chalice @ 1 (to counter Dark Rital) and leave Relic open to counter Cabal Ritual. Both together effectively counter Past in FLames, which forces him to go off via Ad Nauseam.
Overall your opponent is in very bad shape already and it should not matter much what exactly you are going to do.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
My opponent had a past in flames left in his deck. I flashbacked therapy for tendrils and my opponent went of the next turn.
I agree with Gobolord in that there's enough antisynergy between lines of play that the "correct" line depends on ALL the information available, not just his hand. I would Extract and then make notes about important parts of his library configuration. Did he mainboard EtW? Past in Flames? Ill-Gotten Gains? keep AN in? any non-1cc bounce spells? Does he run Burning Wish or is he stuck with whatever is in the main? What storm engine is he likely going to use? Also, how many rituals are in his graveyard? If he topdecks LED and then Past in Flames, does he have enough gas in his GY to win with Tendrils? (EDIT: just saw your post. looks like he did)
If opponent's deck had EtW or Past in Flames or IGG or Burning Wish, stripping Tendrils seems pointless. He doesn't need it yet and if he starts comboing later he can just recur it, find another or with with tokens. I guess you can discard Tendrils this turn, Relic it next turn. But he can still win with Wish into Tendrils or EtW. This really depends on what you saw out of his deck. Hitting Tendrils would be very low priority for me unless his build was really vulnerable.
After looking at his deck and hand, the first thing I'd think about is what's the best he can do? Next turn he cannot possibly Past in Flames (needs LED + PiF off the topdeck) or Ad Nauseam (needs a lot). If he draws a mana source, he can Preordain to set something up. That's the best he can do. The scariest thing he can set up is Past in Flames the turn after. Ad Nauseam is not happening the turn after no matter what he finds (Ritual + AN is still one short). Most likely, he would just cantrip for the next 2-4 turns trying to stabilize his hand.
(EDIT: You said he played Past in Flames next turn... I think that's impossible unless you missed a card in hand or permanents on the field. Or did he play it in 2 turns?)
So I would put a bulls-eye on the Preordains in his hand. His hand is absolute garbage right now and he needs to both topdeck a land and cantrip into various resources and/or a storm engine before he can do anything. If it wasn't your only creature, I'd be tempted to Therapy naming Preordain, crippling his hand. That way even if he topdecks mana, he still can't do anything for a number of turns. But doing so gives up your only pressure, giving him too much time to lucksack draw. You can also shut off Preordains with Chalice. I'd be very tempted to do that. Chalice also shuts off all future cantrips. Those decks are full of cantrips and he desperately needs to rebuild his hand. After extracting Abrupt Decay, if you noticed he has no bounce other than Chain of Vapor (i.e. no way to remove Chalice @ 1), sticking Chalice would be my priority. The question is do you Chalice this turn and give up your other disruption or Chalice next turn?
That random possibility of lucksack Past in Flames would make me want to stick Relic before Chalice just in case.
So I would probably go:
1) Tap mountain for Relic. Go with Waste and Relic open. EOT exile if enough gas to go off with a PiF next turn, otherwise hold up.
2) Chalice @ 1. Go
3) Hold up Relic, ideally with your Wasteland. Cast Piledriver/other creature once you've drawn more lands.
(EDIT: Looks like this would have saved you since he did go for PiF right away)
How did he do that? With LED in play, 0 lands and 0 cards to produce mana in his hand it's impossible to cast the Past in Flames that he most definitely needed to win this game the next turn.
This.^
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
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