All B/R update speculation.

[Megadeus]

If you can attack and kill a Delver using SoFaI then TNN isn't really stopping you is it?

Sure, but in a tempo deck where their 1 drop can periodically deal you 9-12 damage, them having an unstoppable man who you are literally unable to interact with can mean they simply deal the last 3 points of damage that was left over. SoFaI takes 3 to cast (tough with waste and daze) and then 2 to equip (to a man whom they have many 1 mana answers to tempo you out with. And by the time you can stick a man, cast and stick the SoFaI and equip it to a man, they have simply played their 1 drop and 3 drop and raced you.

[Esper3k]

I wouldn't say Mitchell's board was commanding. If True-Name Nemesis had been a different creature, Bauman could have attacked, killed Delver with the Sword of Fire and Ice, drawn a Swords to Plowshares or any creature in his deck to block the Tarmogoyf and won on the next turn. But True-Name Nemesis took the suspense out it -- leading Patrick Chapin to ad-lib, "Wah woh wohh" -- because everybody knew Bauman had no way to remove the Nemesis and had effectively lost the game. Chapin's ad-lib is telling because it reflects a situation that has played out on camera a lot: One player resolves a True-Name Nemesis and the rest of the game doesn't really matter.

I agree that if the players had caught the Delver earlier that things would have been different.

I'd say it was commanding. Any removal spell he drew instead of TNN wins the game. Any creature wins the game if it's not blue (since any nonblue creature would just block the Revoker and make it a moot point). If it is blue, Bauman still dies even if he draws a StP or creature since he's still left with 1 card to deal with 2 creatures. Brainstorm / Ponder likely also mean Bauman is dead as well.

In short, Mitchell had a large amount of cards he could draw to kill Bauman, thus I'd call that a commanding board position.

I took the "wah wah wah" as a sarcastic one since TNN came down at a time where it really didn't matter since any creature or removal spell would have ended the game.

TNN is great vs D&T, no doubt, but the Game 3 of Seattle was not about TNN.

[Esper3k]

Sure, but in a tempo deck where their 1 drop can periodically deal you 9-12 damage, them having an unstoppable man who you are literally unable to interact with can mean they simply deal the last 3 points of damage that was left over. SoFaI takes 3 to cast (tough with waste and daze) and then 2 to equip (to a man whom they have many 1 mana answers to tempo you out with. And by the time you can stick a man, cast and stick the SoFaI and equip it to a man, they have simply played their 1 drop and 3 drop and raced you.

I don't think that he was talking about SoFI vs TNN in general, but at the idea that TNN was the primary reason Mitchell won G3 at SCG Seattle.

[Megadeus]

I don't think that he was talking about SoFI vs TNN in general, but at the idea that TNN was the primary reason Mitchell won G3 at SCG Seattle.

Ah. I mean yeah Greg was in a solid position regardless. He hadn't completely locked the game, but TNN did essentially seal the deal though. I mean, like you said, any man essentially locks the game up. TNN certainly meant that his outs were literally 0 however. D&T can always play the card that gives all Non White men -0-1.

[Barook]

D&T can always play the card that gives all Non White men -0-1.

Nobody plays that anymore because it sucks. D&T would rather run stuff like Celestial Flare which has broader applications.

[ESG]

D&T can always play the card that gives all Non White men -0-1.

You're thinking of Holy Light. I don't see how that card is playable in a deck that wants Thalia on the board whenever possible.

[Megadeus]

It's a sweeper vs Elves, Gobs, kills TNN. Not saying it is amazing, but it is a thing. I know one guy at our local played 2 in his deck.

[Barook]

It's a sweeper vs Elves, Gobs, kills TNN. Not saying it is amazing, but it is a thing. I know one guy at our local played 2 in his deck.

Against Goblins, I would rather have equipment. And against Elves, it's pretty slow at 3 mana. Flare can also get rid of stuff like Progenitus, Delver, etc which Holy Light can't hit. Still not an optimal solution against TNN, but better than nothing.

[Fatal]

Celestian < Wing Shards IMO still cluncky but works vs counters and can be and edge vs elves - if he overcome before NO its gamebreaking.

[Esper3k]

Just a funny blast from the past link that I saw in someone's signature - the t32 at Legacy Champs 2007: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...m/daily/bd295a.

An interesting look at what diversity was back then compared to nowadays.

[Dia_Bot]

Just a funny blast from the past link that I saw in someone's signature - the t32 at Legacy Champs 2007: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...m/daily/bd295a.

An interesting look at what diversity was back then compared to nowadays.

Seeing those lists again sure take you back.
It makes me wonder what the meta would look like if emrakul, grizelbrand, batterskull, TNN and delver of secrets were never printed.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

That Hunted deck actually looks pretty sweet.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not sure if that's supposed to be more or less diverse. The state of Legacy now is probably more nominally diverse in terms of numbers of decks, that in turn look a lot more like one another, with a much more modular approach to deckbuilding. Thresh is differentiated from aggro-control now because you couldn't just put Werebear in every deck.

Man I miss Truffle Shuffle though.

[Erdvermampfa]

Seeing those lists again sure take you back.
It makes me wonder what the meta would look like if emrakul, grizelbrand, batterskull, TNN and delver of secrets were never printed.

People seem to forget Terminus on the list of format-defining cards. It basically made aggro decks that are light on disruption unplayable.

Man I miss Truffle Shuffle though.

The list seems actually quite playable right now. Sacrifice- and Wrath-effects are of highest value right now due to TNN and the prevalence of Tempodecks. Of course you would have to exchange the janky and dated stuff like Loxodon Hierarch with some good stuff like Grave Titan, but I wouldn't necessarily refuse to play such a deck currently.

[Dia_Bot]

People seem to forget Terminus on the list of format-defining cards. It basically made aggro decks that are light on disruption unplayable.

Yeah, I didn't think about terminus but you might be right there.

[HammerAndSickled]

Terminus has a perceived higher impact because it's the first legacy-playable wrath in a long time, but at the end of the day it's just in one deck and therefore can never really take that much of a metagame share, percentage-wise. SFM/Batterskull, Delver, TNN, and the various hyperfatties have given rise to entirely new archetypes: the "blade" deck, the "delver" deck (basically becoming the face of legacy tempo and shunting Merfolk aside) and the decks that cheat stuff into play existed in some form but went from tier-2.5 at best to tier 1 in a year's time. Even Craterhoof Behemoth changed Elves and the NO shell completely. Terminus is just a defining card of one deck under a larger archetype, UW control decks usually featuring CounterTop.

[Michael Keller]

You're thinking of Holy Light. I don't see how that card is playable in a deck that wants Thalia on the board whenever possible.

Holy Light doesn't hit Thalia.

[Megadeus]

Holy Light doesn't hit Thalia.

Unfortunately Thalia makes it cost 4. Which is pretty damn expensive for an extremely weak infest

[Barook]

Yet another lovely Top 8 with 7 Brainstorm decks, entirely consisting of TNN decks, Anti-TNN (minus the 4-color Delver deck - maybe) and combo decks that don't give a damn about TNN - lovely.

At least the Top 16 is diverse.

[Dice_Box]

Looks like an advantage day in the park. Well save for manaless. Seeing that in the top 8 is sweet.