True, but I think I'll stick with Faerie.Originally Posted by DarkJester
Agent of Erebos may be some cute tech for the mirror
Hi all.
Finally got around to joining in the talking after lurking awhile. Relatively knew to M-Dredge. Just had a watch of the game recently posted from SCG Detroit and was shocked at the play of the gentleman piloting the deck. Anywhoms I look forward to discussion with you guys and to Hollywood's new primer soon to arrive.
Currently I run a spy list with Dryad Arbor/Nature's claim board.
Trying to get ahold of Mindbreak traps atm, on a fairly limited budget.
Board atm looks like this but will be changing:
4 Nature's Claim
4 Dryad Arbor
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ashen Rider
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
Any suggestions for it? Currently have no known meta to fight as I flit between different parts of the country so it has to be a very [cheap] jack of all trades jobby.
Hello there!
Removing hate with just 6 lands (of which 4 have summon sickness) and 4 claims is really hard, so i'd either strengthen the plan or cut it completely and go fearless. A good way to make the claim plan stronger is to play some lands in the maindeck: Dryad Arbor is an easily maindeckable card, as it has a its merits, apart from being a green source: it's an uncounterable body which speeds up our game plan by quite a lot. T2 therapies are more likely to happen, with it. I'd play a singleton Bayou/Overgrown Tomb/Forest, since they can be fetched and tap for mana the turn you play them.Playing lands would force you to cut Balustrade Spy, though, but i don't think that's a problem, since there are good replacements. Griselbrand is good, but if you don't want to drop the money for it there's Whirlpool Drake, which dredges more than enough.
Building a good green sideboard is quite hard, since the anti hate strategy eats up a lot of slots. If you keep 10 slots dedicated to anti hate, your actual sideboard consists of 5 cards, basically forcing you to ignore some matchups. Mindbreak Trap can be a good choice,but i wouldn't care about the storm matchup without at least 8 slots to fight it. I see a lot of people playing with only 4 Traps as storm hate, but i wouldn't do that. We will often lose g1, winning g2 and g3 with just 4 mindbreak traps is definitely not easy. I like the matchup better with 4 Chancellor of the Annex helping the traps, so if you have those in you maindeck, i think you can dedicate 4 slots to storm. You can cut Sickening Shoal and Contagion from the sideboard if you already have them in your MD, i don't suggest playing more than 4 removal. Faerie Macabre is probably the best grave hate we can play, it can be worth including some copies, if you expect reanimator and dredge, since they can often race us, if we don't disrupt them.
Yeah Chancellor main is run. I do in fact own three Griselbrand and will give them a go if the fearless approach fails (speed over resiliency). I shall throw a couple of Macabre in. There is no contagion/Shoal in maindeck as present.
In fact here is the maindeck list as it stands (makes sense to include it as is being discussed):
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Darksteel Colossus
Darksteel will be replaced with a Blightsteel when I get my hands on one. I like the potential to have it drop vs show and tell or allow me to drop a spy off of the same without killing myself on draw. It also gives a turn of redundancy assuming I go off and maybe they nuke my bridges at the right moment or something similar. I can still have a turn to go all in with Shadows and Ichorids.
Having been following the Force discussion I would dearly like to give the blue list a try but that is for the far future where I might actually acquire the appropriate hardware.
Ta for the suggestions Thrasher.
The Doomsday Codex
We're catching bullets in our teeth,
Its hard to do but they're so sweet.
And if they take a couple out,
We try to work things out.....
Meow.
I like Worldspine Wurm for this purpose in Spy lists, as you can possinly trade with an Emrakul, then earning a Dread Return.
The chances of it coming into play is very small, but if it does happen it can turn on a Dread Return by sacking it via Therapy.
And because spending that much money on a Blightsteel, for a card you're never likely to actually play, seems like a waste.
Choosing between the different shuffle creatures is definitely all about maximizing corner cases.
Serra Avatar can potentially make an Emrakul chump outright but fails to do so if you have less health, or less than 15.
Blightsteel forces a block, which shrinks Emrakul to a level you should be able to defeat over time. Also, he doesn't go to the graveyard (which is relevant if you're up against a mill combo plus hate, such as Helm of Obedience+Rest in Peace or Painter's Servant+Grindstone+Tormod's Crypt; if you have a not-visit-graveyard shuffle creature and some tokens in play, you might be able to aggro out your opponent).
Progenitus is similar to Blightsteel, a bit worse against Show and Tell, but can be pitched to Force of Will, Sickening Shoal, Contagion, etc
Worldspine Wurm is quite good if you are both above 15 life, nigh unbeatable if you are above 15 and they are not, and totally awful if you are below 15 but they are above 15 (ex: you cycled three cards). It is worse against most of the non-Emrakul Show and Tell decks, as it will typically fail to kill in a single hit like Blightsteel would. Since Worldspine Wurm visits the graveyard, he is a bit worse against enemy mill decks.
Dread and Guile seem like straight downgrades to Progenitus, although Dread might have some very unlikely corner case where his ability makes him best.
Darksteel Colossus should be a straight downgrade to Blightsteel, although there are some obvious corner cases where you've already dealt a lot of damage and he is better. Against something like Release the Ants combo (the current most popular finisher in Omniscience) Darksteel's lower converted mana cost is a serious drawback.
I think these all the major playable options. Legacy Weapon and Gaea's Blessing do not have the advantages that the creatures provide.
Have I missed anything?
Why do the abilities matter? How exactly are you going to put them on the field when Dread Return is Sorcery.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Because Show and Tell is a thing..
to be fair, that's possible, but highly unlikely. I'd b more worried about decking myself c/o spy etc.
I have found in recent play that most people are still not aware of a blue sideboard with hard counters. However when main decking FoW, people start getting suspicious game 1 when you flip it in your yard. Most game 1's aren't a problem anyway. I have resorted to main decking Chancellor simply because that's what people expect (especially when you choose to draw if you unfortunately win the dice roll). I also prefer a chancellor to FoW when thinking about shambling. Shambling really is underwhelming. Chancellor then gives us (basically) a free draw to find a better dredger. Here's my current build that I am very happy with. Despite everything, we still gg if LotV hits the table so I don't play manaless in my local tournaments very often at all. Note about my sideboard, the 1 Progenitus is in there for the Imperial Painter matchup. That way if they activate the combo it gives us the 1 turn to do our thing.
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Whirlpool Rider
2 Shambling Shell
1 Ashen Rider
4 Chancellor of the Annex
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
SB: 2 Ashen Rider
SB: 4 Disrupting Shoal
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Force of Will
I like this list, even if I'm not fond of Blue in Manaless.
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
So just to let the cat kind of out of the bag, I have well over a hundred iterations of this deck stowed away that I always tend to revisit when things get stale. Since there has been some discussion as to what the "fastest" iteration of this deck is, I went back into the archives and I updated an older list I had never actually played in a tournament setting ever. I had never updated it post-Gatecrash when Balustrade Spy was printed. I just got done testing a few hundred hands with it, crunched some numbers and my jaw literally dropped.
What I can with certainty is that this Saturday I will be playing what I believe to be - IMO - the fastest version of Manaless Dredge there is and something you guys have never seen before. I don't know how well it will do, that remains to be seen. But I'm sure you guys will love it.
And it doesn't even run Baubles or Dryad Arbors.
This has me very interested...
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
I can't give you guys a list unfortunately until Saturday when the tournament is over, but it's seriously awesome. Again, I don't know how well it will do - but all things considered, it's pretty sweet.
You're probably playing LED, been there done that and it's not significantly faster than any other variant.
Regarding SB Force of Will, the problem with that argument is the opponent would have to be an idiot not to realize you were SBing Force of Will as soon as he saw Whirlpool Rider so how many cards are you willing to SB in order to keep it a secret?
This isn't my first rodeo, Jim.
This.
Chancellor is good, but it's pointless to pretend we're not on the blue side when we're playing Rider.
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Hmm, now I'm intrigued, I was flipping thru' land cards and realized the man lands may actually be better than Dryad Arbor because they can be tapped for mana to pay for Daze or Thalia the turn they're played or Khala Garden lets you keep the land part of the card in play after you've sacrificed the plant token.
Can't really see anything else that'd increase the fundamental turn of the deck short of Blazing Shoal for shits and giggles unless you're playing Bloodghast without Dryad Arbor or actually casting spells.
Next leveling us with Spellbook?
I'm very curious too.
To have the creatures on 1st turn without loosing cards in hand, we have chancellor of the forge which double as a win-con too.
But it's nothing which could change the deck, so I will wait Saturday as I can't make any interesting guess.
No lands in the deck - none.
Again, I'm trying something new. I sat down and literally goldfished over a hundred games and the deck just churns out turn twos like crazy. I'm not saying it's better, but we'll find out how good it is soon enough.
Turn one wins in Manaless are a novelty. Constant turn two wins are what this deck needed - more than before.
This version does it so good.
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