I agree with basically everything that Zotmaster said. General SB strategy differences between lists I tried to sum up in post #1716 on this thread.Originally Posted by Togores
Based on my current (trinket, UG list, below) SB which doesn't change drastically:
4 Swan Song
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Glen-Elendra Archmage
As always, my philosophy with SBing, especially in Post is that there can be some strong guidelines, but you need to gauge how your opponent is playing, and if they have a unique list.
Sneak & Show
+4 Swan Song, +4 Force of Will, +3 Flusterstorm, +1 Hydroblast, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Glen Elendra
-4 Show and Tell, -1 Bajouka Bog, -1 Ulamog, -2 Expedition Map, -4 Repeal, -1 Engineered Explosives, -1 Glacial Chasm
If they have defense grid, leave in a way to remove it. Blood moon is manageable with basics and trinket into goodies. Counter what you need to, until you get to needles or Glen Elendra and hardcast Titan. Get Karakas out ASAP.
ANT
+4 Swan Song, +4 Force of Will, +3 Flusterstorm, +1 Hydroblast, +1 Chalice of the Void, +1 Glen Elendra
-1 Emrakul, -1 Ulamog, -1 Eye of Ugin, -2 Expedition Map, -1 Pithing Needle, -2 Engineered Explosives, -2 Cloudpost, -4 Repeal
Same story, counter things until you get a chalice, Glen Elendra or Titan out. Big them twice if you can. If they have swarm, keep repeals and shave SnT/Maps. Some might me surprised at cutting eldrazi plan, but against storm any win con will get there. It's usually a 2/2 oracle for me, but if I'm spending big mana I like that Titan gets life/bog/chasm. Cloudpost can get shaved because you can afford to miss land drops, you just need early blue and untapped lands - CP doesn't help here. Hating on the yard is key.
TES
+4 Swan Song, +4 Force of Will, +3 Flusterstorm, +1 Hydroblast, +1 Chalice of the Void, +1 Glen Elendra
-1 Emrakul, -1 Ulamog, -1 Eye of Ugin, -3 Expedition Map, -1 Pithing Needle, -2 Cloudpost, -1 Candelabra, -2 Show and Tell, 2 Sensei's Divining Top
TES is much more aggressive and front loaded, which pushes the same ANT board plan even further, map is entirely too slow, where as against ANT it's decent at getting a bog. Top is even iffy. You need to mull to hate. Repeal is in to respect swarm, though you should save FOW for it. EE is great bc they are usually on the goblins plan. The end game matters less, if it's turn 4 and you're alive with any threat it's doing work for you. Chalice is obviously king, and if you see TES a lot Id play two.
Notice how I never take oracle out. With oracle you get a constant stream of spells, since lands stay off the top of the library. You also get a 2/2 beater. Against non-elf combo almost all of my wins come from swinging with an oracle, with superior card advantage holding the fort down. She also thins the deck to your hate permanents too.
Now, while I don't feel too bothered by these three matchups, Revoker is *excellent* against each, so you can try that too. Right now I like chalice/needle, but he's on deck.
I'm going to try the mono-snowpost version at my local store on Tuesday night, I'll make a post on my matchups because this thread doesn't get much love.
Our local metagame is a lot of fair decks which supposedly suits most versions of 12 post. There's a hell of a lot of BUG players though, and that somewhat scares me as I have no idea what to sideboard out when I want to sideboard in like 8 cards. I think we only have about 5 combo players in a room of 25. Here's hoping I don't get matched up against Dredge, Reanimator, Oops All Spells and Stiflenought all in a row.
It seems to be an excellent deck to crush our reigning Death & Taxes player with, as well as the Jund menace who's been winning money every week.
Lately Im having a hard time beating Jund and bug delver with UG post.
DRS goys wasteland confidant and Liliana plus decay on pithing just eats me hard.
I dont play elephant grass, but usualy the games I play It would never be good to stop them enought.
Ideas? Gamplans?
BUG lists have also evolved somewhat differently. I'm looking at this list (mostly because I play against him sometimes): http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=66549
Tim's list (which I'm also using) should have pretty good game against BUG. Engineered Explosives for zero kills flipped Delvers and can be dropped for zero mana...otherwise you do it for 2 mana to take out Tarmogoyf. In any case, leave 2 mana open, both to respect Spell Pierce and also so you can set it off at any time. Abrupt Decay from the BUG player will go for Pithing Needle if it's there, but in the mean time you can still use Needles to slow down Deathrite Shaman. Tim's list also features 4-mana threats in Glen Elendra Archmage and Oracle of Mul Daya...both of which sit outside of Abrupt Decay range and can only really be answered by Force of Will or Liliana of the Veil. You may see Disfigure and Maelstrom Pulse out of the board: it's still not great for them, but it will probably replace some number of Daze and Spell Pierce, and either card can answer our 2/2 dorks (or the 2/1 Phyrexian Revoker that Rock runs). I would also try to leave a blue mana open at all times to Brainstorm in response if they're running a discard package; some do and some (like the list I linked) don't.
Our plan is more or less the same: sit back and stall, ramp into something. A resolved Show and Tell is excellent: like most Delver variants, there's not much they can do once you get down a big monster. If they aren't running Liliana of the Veil (like this list), they can do even less to a big monster you get on the board, hardcast or otherwise.
Nobody plays Jund right now where I play, but I imagine the approach would be pretty similar: although I would also note that Jund has a lot of juicy spells at 2 mana. Chalice of the Void for 2 probably wouldn't be the worst thing ever, even if Abrupt Decay still gets it. I would still Needle or Revoker Deathrite Shaman first (and quite possibly second), although recurred Wasteland off Life from the Loam means Needle might have to respect that. Explosives would probably be set at 2 all the time to wipe out most of their big threats.
One big point is that you don't have to respect the possibility of any countermagic from Jund, so Show and Tell into Primeval Titan should be pretty huge.
The best things i found in order to fight bug and jund properly are mass permanents removal like all is dust, oblivion stone, but you have to pray they do not force you to discard them early (also o-stone can be abrupt decayed and that's something i really hate, that's why i prefer the other). The other way is playing resilient cards like Obstinate Baloth and Thragtusk.
I honestly think Elephant Grass is after all a bad choice here, because they aren't really in need of much mana in lategame, so they will surely pay for its taxing effect, that will probably tax yourself even more (also don't forget they can Abrupt decay it in your eot, making you waste a whole turn just by maintaining it).
Another interesting option could be Divert, but its usefullness fluctuates from amazing (turn 2: hymn to tourach yourself bad swamp player!) to a horrible topdeck in lategame, or Moment's Peace that i've honestly never tested yet and could come in handy against other swarm decks like goblins and merfolks.
In my experience, I've found we eat dredge alive. The deck just has a tough time dealing with 4 MB instant speed Bojuka bogs, as well as Elephant grass and counter magic post board. What do you feel are other awesome Matchups, besides Miracles? If they don't play Aven Mindcensor, I feel very comfortable beating D&T for instance.
D&T can be tricky; it depends on how fast their start is and if you have any access to red. Fire / Ice can absolutely blow them out.
Nic Fit is another match that's hugely in our favor. While the Scapewish variant does have the ability to kill you out of nowhere, as long as you keep your life total high (24+) or keep mana up to Crop Rotation into Glacial Chasm, you'll kill them eventually, and the other variants just don't have enough threats to kill you before you take the game over.
Piloted mono-
Game 1: Reanimator - 0-1-1
The games were surprisingly slow because neither of us could end the game. It was just one of us playing a big thing and gaining a ton of life. He eventually killed me with flyers in the first game, but the second just drew out due to a Pithing Needle naming Griselbrand from me, and 3 Needles naming Maze of Ith, Eye of Ugin and Karakas from him. Hardcasting Emrakul doesn't do much when your opponent has Blazing Archon on the table either.
Game 2: Stiflenought 0-3-1
Dead. Dead. Dead. Dead dead dead dead dead. I just can't compete with a 12 power guy on turn 3 with counter spell backup, and him stifling or trickbinding all my triggers.
Game 3: BUG Control 0-5-1
I actually had pretty good game on him in the first, it totally came down to a huge blunder on my behalf. I fixed my top to have a Primeval Titan, to swap them, crack a fetch and slam him on the table and get back in the game. Instead, I cracked the fetch before I swapped with top, flipped the card in my hand thinking I had Prime Time and SURPRISE CROP ROTATION. WHOOPS. Jace and Lili end the game since I just get toplocked.
Otherwise it was pretty close due to Moment's Peacing my opponent's 6 damage per turn from True-Name Nemesi. Fog with Flashback is pretty sweet.
The second game was just awful. He steals my Pithing Needle, wastelocks me, hides behind a wall of counter spells, hymns away my hand and fateseals me to death. It was particularly bad when I had my white source wasted and proceed to draw 2 Rest in Peace in a row. This game taught me some things though.
Game 4: UR Delver 1-7-1
First game actually took a while as I was able to cast Primeval Titan and gain a lot of life, but I ultimately fell to a bunch of Delvers and Grim Lavamancers. The second was incredibly goofy as I survived 2 consecutive Price of Progresses for 18 each while hiding behind elephant grass. Last game was as follows: Goblin Guide into Goblin Guide into Goblin Guide, hit on every trigger, end each turn with 11 cards in hand, can't find elephant grass or chasm to not die to Price of Progress.
So for my local meta, I found out very quickly that I dislike Dryad Arbor. I know it's a good GSZ target but every time it's in my hand, I only want to grab Oracle of Mul Daya or Primeval Titan, and that Dryad Arbor is SUPER slow, even for this lumbering beast of a deck. I also found out that I dislike not having a 4th basic and a card that isn't a wasteland-proof white source. I think a snow-covered plains is my answer, as I can fetch it with Windswept Heath and Into the North. So what if it doesn't cast GSZ? Most of the time, neither did my Dryad Arbor.
I think I've got a lot to learn about the deck. Coming from a background of control and tempo decks, midrange combo decks are basically the total opposite of what I'm used to playing. I've just gotta practice. I'm sure I'll do better next week!
Started off strong this week before setting sail for fail. I managed to lose to UW CounterTop. How? By drawing one mana spells seven turns in a row, even with a Top to stack the deck.
Going down to Cincinnati this weekend for my first ever SCG event. Any other Post players coming? I've been encouraging everyone to play Miracles in the mean time anyway :)
I think u guys undervalue the power of 3x krossan grip. I play 3 since ever and its the card I most love from the side.
BAtterskull
Humillity
Swords of colors.
Deagnout
Blood moon
Sneak atack
Top
CounterbAlance
Grindstone
Pithing
Bridge
Moat
Back to basics.
And all time I dont care how many counters my opp hAs.
MissBelle, could you share your list, please? I'm trying to build either mono-G 8Post or maybe cheap UG (I got duals, but no SnT, Candelabras and Eldrazis) 12Post, so I'd love to get some idea.
Thanks
It's not that these cards can't be hit by K.Grip, bit truth is that i usually don't care for any of them (with the exception of the pretty rarely played Back to Basics).
Do you really fear Batterskull? Every time my opponent fetches for it, an evil grin appears on my face. Repeal FTW! Batterskull against us is a huge tempo loss for them, i'd be happy to face it all day.
Humility? Ulamog already takes care of it (yes it works)
Dreadnought? It's pretty rare at the moment, given how many abrupt decays are floating around, but Repeal may do an amazing 2x1 here with low mana investment.
Blood Moon? If you fear it you usually have the option of playing around it fetching your own basics, copying them with vesuva and almost ignoring it. Games will go long for sure
Sneak Attack? A well skilled Sneak&Show player will never pass priority once this hits the battlefield, so destroying it while there's already a hasty emrakul in play ready to smash you isn't particularly appealing to me.
Top? Why would you need to invest resources destroying it?
Counterbalance? Yes, together with Top may be annoying, but UW players lack cc3 cards (a couple of cliques at the very best) so repeal is pretty handy here. Also it's not such a hard lock against us, just keep deploying your lands and they'll lose anyway.
Ensnaring Bridge? As said above, Ulamog destroys it even if it's countered in the process, so no worries here.
Moat? See Ensnaring Bridge above, also considers that Emrakul flies too.
If I would usually end up facing MUD, then i would consider employing it (or maybe playing revokers instead, which give you more widespread options) but for now, i'm focusing on facing BUG at my best. Btw, oracle has proved great in this sense lately, i just would like to have room to squeeze a second trinket mage in.
I disagree hardly in most cases.
Repeal is great, I play 4 but Its also counterable.
Back to basics is played in some esper, miracles, and merfolks decks. Not usual but also not sooo strange.
I dont fear battleskull but sometimes a batterskull with a TNN is really hard.
Humillity is good, u dont always have time to ramp and search the eye, specialy when your opp is keeping pressure or you could get entreated and his has top lock.
Dreagnout was just for the coment before.
blood moon wrecks you, plyed by any deck if they just have a bit of pressure o sneak atacks or anything is gg.
Sneak atack I have blown them away a lot of times, cause he usualy have karakas. We just bounce when they go into battle or activate it and pass priority.
If your opponent has top and you dont have it sometime you wana destroy it just that he dont get the extra manipulation.
counterbalance can be hard with top if we dont have top. Just making us lose tempo too much.
And they have like 4 cc3 including entreat. They always leave it in top for the repeal.
Bridge is meh, thats true. But sometimmes multiple pieces lock u out of the game.
See bridge.
Thats it^^
Blood Moon and Back to Basics shouldn't wreck you unless for some reason you had no reason to expect either. I find myself fetching up more basics as a habit nowadays, and even nonbasics like Glimmerpost enter untapped, meaning you can use them to bounce or blow something up in a pinch. Swan Song helps here as well.
I'm mostly directing this at Tim since we're basically running the same list. I keep going through the list of CMC <= 1 artifacts, and one that keeps catching my eye is Elixir of Immortality. It's 1/4th of your starting life and an on-demand shuffle effect. It also recycles spent Engineered Explosives or blown-up Cloudpost and has a limited ability to combat Deathrite Shaman. I'll probably be looking to tweak the deck right up until the moment I leave for SCG Cincinnati this weekend. Do you think there's some merit to this or am I being overly neurotic?
While arguable, boarding Grip for those cards seems lazy to me. Basics, Repeal, Needle/Revoker, Ulamog and smart play are enough to get through all of those really. Mono G is the only build I'd imagine requiring it, or maybe one of Rocks precision tuned Revoker+knockout boards. But that is beyond me. I don't think theyre worth their weight.
Regarding Elixir, I do appreciate what it does (especially a trinket target) but I think Trinket into Map into GP does all of shuffle and life gain for the same mana, within cards we already play, eldrazi can do the yard recycling but that rarely comes up for me. Plus I don't feel good sitting back 100% on defense and Elixir is exactly that.
Went ahead and tried it today anyway. I find it strange how it does everything I want it to do - gain life and stall, recycle blown up or otherwise used things, shuffle my deck, and even help fight against Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman - and yet when I cast a Trinket Mage I never tutored for it. I guess that says everything that needs to be said about the card.
This week has been a frustrating week as far as playing the deck is concerned. The deck has crapped the bed a few times on me; I managed to lose to Miracles in a test match today. Most of my testing has been against BUG Delver since it seems like half the people I play with suddenly picked it up: I find the really good pilots beat me more often than not, the so-so pilots I just about break even with them, and the bad pilots I beat more often than not. I don't know if that says more about me as a player or them. That and being neurotic as it is has led me to continually look for other additions to the deck, and not all of my ideas are especially good ones.
I'll be at SCG Cincinnati this weekend; hope to see some of you there and hopefully I got my crappy games out of the way earlier in the week!
Hi there! I was playing for nearly a month the monoG version, and Vs jund and liliana deck I had the problem, that without pithing (And a lot of times they have the decay) I cant win a early liliana so I was working for a list that can beat it, I think it can be better than the Monog version vs lilianas, delver , drs and other small creatures, and it helps u in the D&t machup and in the elves and other small creatures deck, here is the decklist:
Creatures:
4 Primeval Titan
1 Oracle Mul Daya
1 kozilek
1 Ulamog
1 Emrakul
2 Dryad
Sorceries:
4 Gsz
2 Bonfire
Artifacts:
1 o stone
4 Tops
3 Pithing
4 maps
Instants:
4 Punishing
4 crop r
Lands:
4 cloudpost
4 glimerpost
3 misty
3 vesuva
3 GRoves
2 Taiga
1 forest
1 karakas
1 eye of ugin
1 bojuka
1 Cavern of souls
The sideboard is not finished yet, but i think i can use white mana and play for example, sacred ground, to solve the pox and probably lands machup (the loam, wasteland lock is hard to beat without pithing xD) But i was thinking in a sideboard like this:
Sideboard:
1 gaddock
1 Savanahh (This can probably go in the md)
2 sacreed ground
1 glacial chasm
2 chalice of the void/ thorn of ametist/ spehere of resistance
2 Reb/ pyroblast
2 Krosan grip
2 Phyrexian revoker
2 Rip
As i said, the sideboard is a big ball of shit I think u can help me with it ^^
Regards!!
Though I understand your desire to update the deck after mediocre results in testing, I'd stay away from it. There's a reason you (and others!) have been playing well with the deck. Once you've got a list you trust, I'd try to keep that trust even through some adversity. You'll do fine, you've got a deck which is aimed at killing fair decks and there's a bunch of those around now. Looking forward to hear a report from you after sunday!
Haven't disappeared entirely, just not posting my builds recently and will wait until after this weekend. New build is doing extremely well at weeklies. Going to debut my build at the 40 duals event this weekend, and we'll see if my mirror tech finally pays off. Been looking for tech that works against combo, certain tempo, and the mirror and was failing until very recently.
Great to hear, good luck! got a report for after the weekend?
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