Nice report, I always love reading them! And congrats for the results too!Originally Posted by Resist_Temptation
Miracles is a hard matchup (at least how I experience it). Your sideboard has quite some goodies against it (chalice, abrupt decay, krosan Grip, Engineered Explosives), you probably sided them all? I would really love to hear tips and tricks how to play against Miracles, if anyone has positive experience against it.
I like Sylvan Library because it helps against certain matchups. Swords to Plowshares + Rest in Peace is a problem because the token is dealt with and the combopieces are gone. So having an alternative drawengine/cardselection, fueled by plowed Marit Lages, is quite nice. It also keeps a Sejiri Steppe in the Library and a crop rotation closeby, if I would like to protect my own token. Also against combo the lifeloss doesn't really count, and drawing cards makes gamble much more reliable. And Library is a tool against Miracles as well.
Other noncombo decks without StP or RiP are in my opinion easier matchups, that need less sideboardoptions, so that's why I prefer Sylvan Library.
Choke is something that I will certainly try, thanks for the suggestion! I can imagine it works nice with rishadan port.
I've found I've had a very solid matchup with miracles over the long-term, probably as high as a 70% match-win. First thing is that I'm on a 4c build with mainboard crucible, eex2, zuran orb. Second thing is that I still run a ghost-quarter. As such, My plan has pretty much always been to move to quarter and waste their mana base game one to prevent large entreats. I run a creeping tarpit as a jace-slayer MB as well. Because they're set up to be very counter-heavy game one, and don't have any relevant interaction short of a resolved jace + countertop lock at 2 and entreats, if you can disrupt their mana base early to prevent them from resolving jace or getting an entreat for more than 2 angels, you can hide behind bridges and grind out their mana base before going for a win-con. Post-board, I have a pithing needle for top, and then I usually either have access to intuition for urborg + raven's crime + loam to strip their hand early, or geist of st. win. Game-plan post-board is therefore to needle their tops, usually by k-gripping the counterbalance(s) first then slamming needle. Biggest priority postboard is probably to not let them have a Jace active without a response, because they don't have a way to win a long-game without him unless they manage to exile all of your punishing fires, your tarpit, and your DD/Stage's. It's by no means a free lunch of a matchup, but I've been playing lands all the way through since countertop/landstill was a thing, so I've got a good intuition for what the best line of play is for me in a given game.
The biggest thing with miracles players is that they're in general used to being reactive and controlling, and it takes a very experienced miracles player to recognize that in this matchup, they're the beatdown since lands (with ghost quarter) has the ability to restrict their mana base much harder over the long term than any delver, D&T, or pox deck. I can't count the games I've stolen off of miracles players who chose the control role and then lost to a quarters-lock while they scrambled to find a win-con while they still had lands available.
I totally agree and do no usually have an issue with this matchup. I just happened to get an opponent who knew the matchup and my draws did not end up working out. The deck was a lot of fun to play, and my match ups were very favorable for me.
Good job, and nice listCongrats on the almost top 32!
Tom and I are thinking the meta has made Ghost Quarter pretty lackluster. Most decks tend to run either no basics or a ton of them, so we're thinking of replacing it... we were thinking either a 4th Punishing Fire, or a Sensei's Divining Top. I'm open to more suggestions though. Cabal Pit? PFire would probably just be better. I don't like Steppe, there's never a need for it if you play correctly. What else?
What about Sylvan Library? I like it more then Top .Good job, and nice list
Tom and I are thinking the meta has made Ghost Quarter pretty lackluster. Most decks tend to run either no basics or a ton of them, so we're thinking of replacing it... we were thinking either a 4th Punishing Fire, or a Sensei's Divining Top. I'm open to more suggestions though. Cabal Pit? PFire would probably just be better. I don't like Steppe, there's never a need for it if you play correctly. What else?
I like Top because it allows you to dredge loam at instant speed. It protects you from a Surgical if need be.
Hey guys, I've been playing with 4C Lands for a few weeks. Is there a significant reason to play Zuran Orb in the main deck? I've never seen it play a significant role; I'm wondering if the slot would be more relevant with something else.
Being able to have an out to an aggro/burn deck in G1 is very nice. Plus, sometimes you just need those few extra points of life to stabilize and get a lock of some sort going.
Its also an out to price of progress which is a real beating if you don't have a way to stop the damage
If you opponent is surgical extracting your LFTL while you have an active top out they deserve to get blown out. I find that most of my opponents don't even try to surgical the loam anymore for the fear of tranquil thicket. Most of the time they extract Stage, Wasteland, Port, Dark Depths, Maze etc. not the loam
I can't agree more.
And this is why I won't cut Ghost Quarter too. You extracted my Wastelands? Ok, here is another one.
Good point, not in lands but that was actually a fairly common, and somewhat disastrous to me, play vs me when I was on 4 C loam. Having a 5th waste effect would have really helped.
Can't agree with Library over Top? I wouldn't cut Ghost quarter from lands ever. I prefer the 5 wasteland
Because I don't feel the need for some top deck manipulation. And until proven otherwise, I think both Library and Top are bad but for different reasons.
I don't understand why anyone would ever consider cutting the ghost-quarters. It may not be worth the slot in 19/20 games you play, but there is the very real inevitability of "if you don't do something, I'll make sure you NEVER do ANYTHING" that ghost-quarters brings. I have yet to find a magic deck that can win through a post-board trinisphere with no lands in a non-exile zone. More to the point, I have yet to see a deck other than ANT even attempt to win once all of their mana producing lands have been ghost quartered then bojuka bogged away. Without the threat of inevitably preventing your opponent from playing magic at all, what makes lands different from a bad version of agro-loam, or some bad A-B combo with crop rotation and life from the loam as a tutor engine?
I never particularly liked the Ghost Quarter. As a 5th Wasteland it's fine, but pretty marginal I feel. GQ's ability to kill all of an opponent's basics isn't worth the Crop Rotation/Bojuka Bog/Tranquil Thicket slot.
Without Crucible + Exploration it'll take a minimum of 6 dredges/land drops (recurring GQ every time + other stuff) to kill all of Miracles' or DnTs' basics. Dredging obviously means you're not drawing cards like Intuition or Exploration unless you opened with them and if you began the game with Intuition/Exploration you hardly need the Ghost Quarter to take control of the game. The only other decks with basics are maybe various Junk Variants? Deadguy? Maverick? They only have a handful of basics and virtually no outs to PFire/EE anyway. Against other decks with 1 or 2 basics Rishadan Port is enough. Against combo it's useless either way.
Against Miracles and DnT you probably don't even want to be spamming Ghost Quarter. They can't interact well with you game 1 so it's faster and safer to just go assemble Marit Lage/EE lock (especially since GQing them won't actually do anything the first 4 or so activations). Game 2 you can't afford to be dredging all the time because that leaves you open to their Rest in Peaces and you need to draw your Krosan Grips. I suppose hitting Miracles' 2 Plains has some merit to protect Marit (haha) Lage, but Rishadan Port also does that while not eating up your land drops/draw steps and providing them with free shuffles.
I suppose that's one way to look at it. My personal perspective has always been that the number one long-term goal for a given game against a fair deck is to lock down their mana. I DO run a mainboard crucible, so aggressively dredging game 1 to try and quarter/waste lock my opponents is something I don't mind doing. I HAVE been toying with the idea of actually cutting the combo down to 1-of thespians and Dark Depths with no crop rotations game 1, and boarding into a configuration more like the straight combolands build for game 2/3. I'm not sure how it would work out in an unknown meta, but locally I could probably steal some wins from people who I play with fairly regularly.
From BoM coverage round 6: a Lands player is 6-0 and Phelix was 4-1 at the beginning of round 6 (with only 1 bye and if he is on Lands for this tournament). Only 2 Lands players in the room according to the metagame breakdown. And they are doing good :)
That 4 color loam deck from BoM is all over the place.
Teeg + GSZ seems like an odd choice.
I haven't watched coverage yet, but hopefully they show a few matches to see how this deck works.
The 4C Loam list has been around for almost a year now. If you take a look at the Aggro Loam thread there's a lot of discussion about it. Hoogland popularized a more controlling list with Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams, but with the printing of TNN it fell to the wayside.
I'll check that out, thanks. I guess without Terravore and DD I didn't recognize it
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