Thanks for the Report. I am looking to switch back to the Shardless BUG from Delver, for the same reasons you mention. I am curious about the main deck Toxic Deluge that you (and Lejay) have been running. In reading your report it only came up a few times, do you feel that the card is really main deck worthy? Did you just for get to mention its impact in the games that you played? Also could you comment on the lack of main board discard (hymn or thoughtseize)? What would you change about the deck?Originally Posted by infiniteJ
I do agree that the RUG matchup is favorable but again it is always close, especially when they are running 3x submerge. It seemed that was also very favorable in the finals matchup.
Good Report.
Also.
You know the whole Bertoncini cheats is kind of a big deal right?
Sure. I don't live in a cave. I merely presented my perspective. I am not a judge and I am sure they ruled carefully on the earlier round situation. A known pro/pt competitor did the same thing to a friend at the legacy gp Atlanta a few yrs ago. Same exact ploy and lies. Same ruling. I found both situations upsetting.
The Deluge's were good vs the true-name/stoneblade decks I expected to be popular. There were at least two blow-outs. There was at least one game where I was desperately trying to find one. There also seemed to be a couple goblins/merfolk floating around which I dodged but would have been good there. They are easy to side out when bad and easy to pitch to lilliana when you have board control. There are so many decks out there that have difficulty contributing enough dudes to the board to beat a lilliana now so they have to over-commit into a deluge (at least in theory). If someone argued for a better card or a different list, I wouldn't fight for the deluge spot at all. Same with the pulse which felt like a bad decay and a nice oh-shit policy but honestly, batterskull/jace never feel like hard cards to beat. You can pressure jace better than any control deck and goyf can stare down a batterskull.
The discard I briefly mentioned in my post (glut on twos for hymn, ts being meh cascade). The arguments against it can be found in Lejay's posts as well as in Gerry's article's thoughts on post-sb games vs esperblade (although he does have them MB to hedge against combo). I had one mirror opponent one time board in more discard. During the match he cascaded into useless cards, thoughtseized redundant ones in a game that was going long, and hymned a stranded force or an in response abrupt decay, all while I flooded the board with dudes and plainswalkers. Afterwards, he asked my how I sideboarded and was shocked that I boarded out all the discard. Even after seeing how bad it was in the match, he still stuck to his guns and argued with me. I think it's easier to remember the games you blow someone out with double hymn or double thoughtseize than the ones you draw them late in the game. Also, legacy decks are so resilient and cantrip heavy that opening on discard can be underwhelming. Lastly, so many matches vs the bolt based tempo decks come down to them digging for bolts that I'd hate to start out bolting myself on t1 to take a card I can usually play around. That said, the 1 mana discards felt like a critical tool to fight combo post board as my md is VERY soft to combo. If you have a heavy combo meta, then maybe you have to play the 4 discard main and a more balanced sideboard. I just guessed some of the better players (many who don't play a ton of legacy) in the southeast would gravitate towards UWR delver/esperblade/miracles (I also suspected BUG delver would be popular).
As to what I'd change? I'd have to play more with this configuration to know for sure. I think cutting the pithing needle or a duress for a disfigure or 2 might help vs delver/deathrite openers as mentioned in my top8 profile. Unless the mirror becomes more popular, notion thief is probably unnecessary although I did board it in a lot. Maybe the pulse or a deluge could become a 23 land but 22 felt fine. Jace was underwhelming...maybe go to 1. I expected strix to be mediocre but it was solid. Three is excessive though. I think Jitte is unnecessary and possibly actively bad in these decks. A 4th Lilliana would never be an unwelcome sight and is perhaps the best addition. Honestly, I think the creature/spell core is excellent. I don't I want to mess with the cascade mix by adding much.
-IJ
I've only recently started playing the deck, but my preliminary results also seem like the 1-of Jace is the right call. Other than that, I've found myself boarding out Hymn in "fair" matchups, but I have also felt like Thoughtsieze was still pulling it's weight, especially against decks with specific problem cards. This may also be due to (what I think is) the abnormally high level of non-Abrupt Decay-able threads in my LGS meta, which contains multiple people who play 12-post and Lands variants as well as more normal things like Reanimator and Sneak and Show, so I frequently want instant speed removal for something like Emrakul, Griselbrand, or Marit Lage. I've been running 1 Diabolic Edict in the main and 1 in the board for this. I had intially taken the advice of a friend playing BUG Delver and tried Sapphire Charm as an answer to Lage and Batterskull, but I was already running Krosan Grip for Miracles, and that seems to work way better, so I might go to 2 SB Edicts, and with those Edicts, the additional Thoughtsiezes will be weaker. That being said, it's still not great to cascade into unless you're really far behind.
The other thing I've been toying with is a singleton non-cascadeable, non-Force counter in the main. I've done some preliminary testing with Complicate (not good enough) and Dissolve (meh), but preliminary results have been pretty favorable to Forbid. It's castable turn 2 off of Deathrite, and actually improves as the game goes on and you start resolving Visions and filling your hand. The Buyback doesn't play well with late-game Brainstorms, but it does give you something else to do with dead Lands/Hymns/Thoughtsiezes besides shuffle them away. The only other real condender for the slot is Voidslime (or I guess Undermine). I'm mostly interested in getting other thoughts on this. It's been good so far, but I'm not totally sold.
i was thinking about the changes you suggested, weren't really all that clear to be honest. This is the first time I've picked up shardless bug since it took me forever to get the lands necessary to play the deck.
so i would like to discuss my personal dilemma regarding taking your decklist forward. what it mainly comes down to is, whether or not to play Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize, or Toxic Deluge and Force of Will. I like 14 creatures, and 22 lands. i think cutting jace down to 1 is so bad it shouldn't even be considered. especially because you're running a board wipe in the main, so anytime you have planeswalkers out and an empty board you pretty much auto win. I've seen the decklists where the person is running Force of Wills and no hand hate main. and I've seen decklists with hand hate main and no force of wills at all. for example the guy who got 2nd place at the recent scg open series.
so basically a shardless bug should have at least this in it in my opinion:
4 verdant catacombs
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
4 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
1 creeping tar pit
3 wasteland
2 baleful strix
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
4 shardless agent
4 brainstorm
4 ancestral vision
4 abrupt decay
3 liliana of the veil
2 jace, the mind sculptor
So this leaves 7 open spots in the decklist. the way you went with these 7 spots are 4 force of will 2 toxic deluge and 1 maelstrom pulse. i've seen other decks that do something like 3 hymn to tourach, 2 thoughtseize, 1 maelstrom pulse and then perhaps a 23 land or another strix. i've even seen some people who found some room for force, hymn, and thoughtseize. but these people have usually cut out liliana.
so what's the best cards to fill in these 7 spots going forward?
I think force of will is a great card in this deck. You can pitch spare visions drawn early, have a robust late game card advantage engine, and will often hard cast them late game vs miracles. I can understand the no force argument but I disagree with it. So that's 4 cards. I almost never board out all the force of wills. You keep them vs miracles where they are awesome. You keep a few to keep up with delver as well.
The last three are usually discard cards since they are flexible and strong vs combo, a weaker matchup. I expected the meta at my open to have a lot of stoneforge decks and a lot of nemesis so I used the pulse and deluges which are strong there. That said, if your meta is all delver, storm, and miracles, then those cards are bad bad and I'd use maybe some thoughtsiezes or a 4th Lilliana. If it's very heavy delver, another strix. I've seen others run true name or v clique to up the blue count. Really there are many options.
Good Luck Lejay!!!!!!!
I hope you take it down. You are the shardless master!
Bummer… that damn 4c loam deck killed you and Pierre. I can not wait to hear about how it went!
Thoughts on Tombstalker, Baleful Strix, and Sylvan Library.
1) Tombstalker - interesting late game card. Flies over TNN, can end a game fairly quickly. Random as hell though....
2) Sylvan Library - Now THIS is a card i've considered looking at as a potential cascade target, as well as just a good turn 2 play to make filtering out the top of our deck better for shardless agents. Helping us dig harder for our removal or counterspells seems pretty solid. I never got around to trying it out, and now that the guy got 2nd place with it in his list at the BOM, it may actually be worth taking another look at and testing, rather than viewing it as a "cute" card. although to be honest, i'm not sure what I would want to cut for it. Maybe the main deck maelstrom pulse or start cutting some number of baleful strix's. i'm maxed out on everything else. But in a European meta vs. a USA meta....library definitely takes the cake because personally I would expect more people to be play decks like Miracles and combo decks where Library is very very good. In the USA however, players sure do love their Delver of Secrets. So does the choice have to be Library or Strix? is it reasonable to run both?
3) Baleful Strix - I love playing this guy on turn 2 if I don't have a deathrite shaman or my opponent has an aggressive start. I understand the idea of not wanting to play them when you are playing MD toxic deluge, but they stall the early game so well and drawing a card doesn't hurt either. Plus, they're fantastic blockers against Delver of Secrets and Tarmogoyf, which are probably the two most commonly played creatures in a USA meta outside of Stoneforge Mystic and True-Name Nemesis.
So what is the correct call here? Blockers vs. Delver/Goyf? or top deck manipulation and a 5/5 flying beatstick?
Placed second in a small tournament in Annecy with this list :
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Ancestral Vision
SB: 1 Savannah
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Notion Thief
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
I'll explain just the changes from my previous list. For other choices please refer to my previous posts in the thread.
It all started with my friend Tristan Polzl saying he had good results with 3x toxic deluge main deck. It seemed interesting to have more ways to kill nemesis and ways that are more reliable than liliana to do so. Toxic deluge is a flexible card that can get rid of just about any creature. It can kill goyfs if the situation asks for it and it is even good against show and tell emrakul as an extreme example. If I can deal with swarm decks with powerful main deck hosers, the sideboard could be almost completely dedicated to combo.
Combo seemed really well kept in check by the decks to beat after GP Paris. Since combo is shardless' main weakness and N°1 DTB Miracles had always been a good match-up for me it seemed like a good time to test shardless again for BoM.
With deluge main deck we deal very well with swarm so I could finally cut the red splash for whipflare which didn't feel so good against TNN. That let me finally test the white splash for meddling mage sideboard I had been interested in testing for a long time. Meddling is always relevant agaisnt the wide range of combo decks that exist in legacy if you can cast it (or even to pitch it to fow). It is another angle of attack they don't often expect (permanent hate whereas shardless traditionnally counts more on discard and forces) and is great to be cascaded.
With deluge the list was more controllish (my previous build tried to maximize the number of tempoish openings) so we tried to play a third jace. It was good but I had too many cards to side out against tempo with 3 jaces and it was a bit slow on curve. I tried the sylvan library instead for these reasons and to give more 2 drops to cascade into and it went pretty well.
Without strixes (which don't fit very well with deluge) we were cascading more into ancestral, but also more into brainstorms and drs. Having an additionnal powerful 2 drop was very welcomed.
With 3 deluge the list was a bit too heavy on answers which isn't good when you run several lilianas. Also there were only 12 creatures without the strixes. After a lot of different cards tested for 60th slot tombstalker was the best we could find. It's nice to have another big creature that almost always survives our own deluges even facing batterskull. It's also the only flyer which can be a big deal (I don't run clique because of the mana base and to avoid being hosed too much by leyline of sanctity).
I added the forest in addition to the swamp I had. Without strix it isn't a problem to run it. Fetches are optimized to fetch the basic forest mainly which works pretty well with having 4 underground seas. With two basics I don't have to worry anymore for the most part about moons (painter has been on the rise), B2B or waste lock (like I could have in the finals). By playing the two basics that can cast removal and the biggest threats (goyf), I got rid of shardless' biggest weakness for the most part. Against combo decks forest is replaced by savannah.
In the sideboard, after removing 3rd deluge I still felt I needed one brutal additionnal card against swarm decks (especially elves). It could have been 3rd deluge but if it was a sideboard card it could be something more targeted if necessary. I didn't like golgari charm because we would often cascade it when we don't want to which is much worse than cascading whipflare. NoSB seemed like the most powerful and it didn't eat decay from elves. Since I generally side out jace against these kind of decks it's not really upping the curve.
With meddling mage to deal with slow loam decks or some punishing fire lists and ichorid, I cut one leyline of the void, keeping just the last one. I want two fast sideboard grave hate cards to complement either drs or fow according to the match-ups and don't think I need another cage against elves. If you think leyline is only good in your starting hand you should watch game 2 of the finals. Also even if I draw it early running DRS helps casting it.
I try to prepare PT Atlanta, leaving in ten days only so I may not answer quickly to questions. Please try finding my other posts in the thread for other choices.
If any of you has tested block constructed and is proud of his list I am very interested.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Congrats on your finish on this small tournament Lejay! Anyhow, I was just wondering why you chose this deck in essence over anything else in the format?
I always liked your mentality of forfeiting discard / dead draws late game in the MB in favor of beating fair decks game 1. I"m trying to prepare for the invitation in Columbus next month and I think this deck has the best chance against the fair decks in the American Mid-west meta. Or am I wrong here?
Shardless bug is excellent at beating most fair decks and poor at beating most combo decks. All current DTBs seem to handle quite well combo decks. In Annecy the most represented decks were Miracle, BUG Tempo and D&T which are all favourable with my list. I only faced one combo deck : elves (about 50/50 considering the whole match) and lost to it in a tight g3. That was my only loss before the final match.
I don't know particularly mid-west meta but as long as combo isn't big shardless should be a top choice.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
I think the meta in the US has a lot of combo but the invitational legacy meta features a lot more fair decks. Is there a reason why you didn't play a Scrubland over the Savannah? Better fetchland synergy w/ the basics I'm assuming? And how was Meddling Mage working for you the whole day? And against which decks was it best vs?
Thanks for the reply!
My fetchlands base is optimized to fetch the forest and I generally want (and am likely) to have a sea turn 1.
Meddling is mainly for combo so I didn't side it in outside of elves.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...o-Problem.html
Lejay, what do you think of franks sb plans? He says he usually keeps in 1-2 visions vs combo and almost always keeps in at least 3 fow against any deck with TNN delver or sfm. I think he's wrong but I would like to hear your thoughts.
I remember I didn't agree with several things when I read that.
With my prenemesis build I was cutting all visions. Now with meddling I can keep them and cut the goyfs.
I keep all fows against delver decks. Without delver I will generally side them out versus SFM/TNN decks.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Cool, good to see we agree.
Did you consider Tar Pit or Clique? I think Clique is fine even if we run Deluge.
There isn't just deluge, it's also a problem with the manabase as it is to cast clique.
I already gave my opinion on CTP. I don't want to slow myself down and I want to play 4 wastelands. It's mostly a sb card versus miracles so I don't want it.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
How would you board against Deathblade decks? Cards I see potential in are Null Rod, Maelstrom Pulse, Notion Thief? Of course Force of Will isn't very good here. But is discard good against Deathblade decks?
And against Elves I like to leave in the Tarmogoyfs because many of their creatures disable your ground attacks, and I think having as many beaters as possible is optimal here to get in damage. I'm also unsure about discard against Elves. I think it's not very good since they can play multiple spells per turn. Is this the right mindset?
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