Running Smokestacks version, I like Sundering Titan and Tangle Wire or/and Smokestack together. I don't run Forgemasters so more titans makes it more consistent for me.
Initial List:
MUD-Stax v1.0
Lands (24)
4 Mutavault
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Locks(23)
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Smokestack
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
Mana Artifacts (4)
4 Metalworker
Other Finishers (3)
3 Batterskull
Tricks (6)
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trading Post
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Bottled Cloister
The list ran fine, but goyf, and sometimes mom and Mirran Crusader were a problem. Then I got the Wurmcoil vs Batterskull debate and ended up taking the Wurmcoil.
Then came the Sundering Titans and the mana that needed to support them.
Current List:
MUD-Stax v2.0
Lands (23)
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
Locks(22)
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Smokestack
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
Mana Artifacts (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
Other Finishers (5)
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
Tricks (2)
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crucible of Worlds
Having 4 or 3 Vesuvas and City of Traitors was a little too much for me to handle. And after testing the Cavern of Souls, they feel like a good keep. 4 Smokestacks were a little too much after adding the Titans.
The 4 Sphere of Resistances feel underwhelming. Even with 3 or 4 of them out, all UG needs is a 1 to cast creature. FoWs still go through with just 1 mana more for 1 Sphere of Resistance. I am thinking of replacing them with 3 Trinispheres and an extra land or something else.
@Alex Holland
I've been testing a similar list to what you recently posted. I'm loving this mana base with the smaller drops in maindeck revokers and copper gnomes. Games seem more consistent.
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What kind of problem you have some problem with mother of runes? the deck is colorless, so mom should not be an issue...Originally Posted by darkghost
The problem was the batterskull's token was black. Most of the time, I had to re-equip it to something else, so I took the Wurmcoil over the Batterskull.
Makes sense. Never thought of that, so thanks
I'm planning to attend a tourney tomorrow (60% sure, as it is far) and debating whether to run my stax list or Spano's list. I'd like to check the forums here what are the opinions on Smokestack (or my list in general).
I feel like Spano's list seems to be fairly generic MUD. I would say play what you're comfortable playing. Since I personally have not played with a resitor/stax list, I can't say much about your list. Maybe Hellkite over Ratchet Bomb for a search target since you play post base(?), I feel like you can hit most of what you want dead with its ability. When I played 12post lists I used 4 City of Traitors for the turn 1 chalices over 4 wastelands.
Personally I have fallen out of love with the 12 post lists after I've tried the blinkmoth/factory manabase.
MUD deck that I fished from this week's Daily's:
//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
//Creatures: 19
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
//Artifacts: 17
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere
//Sideboard
2 All Is Dust
1 Bottled Cloister
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin
1 Sundering Titan
2 Tormod's Crypt
Source
Thing I notice about this list is that it looks more like a traditional MUD list, except it has the MUD-Post Mana base (seriously though, where's the Cavern of Souls?) Greaves and Platinum Emperion makes me think that one tries to focus more on Kuldotha Forgemaster and that Cloudpost lets players hardcast the finishers is more of an afterthought than the way the deck runs.
Last edited by Mockingbird; 05-11-2014 at 09:46 AM.
"Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void, empty, and become wind."
Just a few more cards, and I'll be done with the Post-version in paper. I'm excited to start playing the deck. :)
Legacy decks-
MUD
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
"You can build a perfect machine out of imperfect parts."
I like this deck for the most part. I'm not a big fan of greaves though and with the post mana base I like Karn a lot. I do like shaving the number of sundering titans for the hellkite and Emperion. I not sure what to think of the second staff of nin in the board but the deck looks pretty good.
Took out the Ratchet Bomb for the Steel Hellkite.
Took out the Crucible of Worlds and added the 3rd City of Traitors.
Is Wasteland really not all that important? I'm trying to see if I should change the Wastelands to Mishra's Factory for more beat down.
BTW, I can't search, I've pretty much ran Smokestack over Kuldotha Forgemaster. I do wonder why I don't ever see any Stax list in more recent rankings.
Crucible of world's makes wasteland and city of traitors better, and is really good with stax. You could take out wasteland for factories, it's all about your style. But the reason I say wastelands aren't the greatest is that a lot of times I find myself not wanting to sacrifice them bc I'm low on mana.
The scenarios like:
T1 tomb-T2 city, robot-T3 wasteland-sac city, 5cmc spell-T4 miss land drop pass/ use wasteland-T5 topdeck mode and everything has 4-6cmc.
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Primary deck: Mud
Secondary deck: Burn
Building: Nic Fit
Add to that an opponent wastelanding you once and you are in a real pickle.
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Exactly! I love it! But say that waste was a factory or even an artifact land and the 5cmc was forgemaster ;).
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Primary deck: Mud
Secondary deck: Burn
Building: Nic Fit
Still need waste against dark depth or karakas, plus its sometimes helpful against greedy decks and its good with trinisphere putting them below 3 lands.
Im very careful with wastelands because of the mana issues so it totally depends on my hand or the board state. It does give you some oops 3 wastelands in my hand i win scenarios sometimes.
My land base (23):
8 sol lands
4 cavern of souls
4 mishras factory
4 wasteland
3 blinkmoth nexus (delver fuck u)
Very nice to sac manlands late game.
And i do play 4 metalworker and 4 monolith ofcourse, even 3 copper gnomes to cheat if i dont get my curve.
Other notable things: 3 revoker main 3 ratchet main 3 hellkite main. No karn no staff.
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 platinum emperion
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Copper Gnomes
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
So why no lodestone golem?
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Primary deck: Mud
Secondary deck: Burn
Building: Nic Fit
I use a similar build to this, and I feel chalice and trinisphere are better soft locks. My list:
4 Metalworker
1 Karn Liberated
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Batterskull
2 Copper Gnomes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
3 Steel Hellkite
1 Staff of Domination
SB: 2 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Trading Post
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 Trinisphere
The fact that Lodestone Golem is a creature always seems to be its downfall in most matchups. Since "best case" you are playing it turn 2, they should have an extra mana to spend to undo your last turn with a 2 mana bolt/STP and swing into an open field. Generally with these smaller dudes you threaten a board where STP dosent look to great when you can respond with saccing a gnome and putting in something better for the 4 mana. Also the manabase can also threaten equivalent swings back without having to add another creature to the board, which makes combat match confusing for your opponent.
So I did ended up going to the tourney today. Here are the details:
Decklist:
Current List:
MUD-Stax v2.01
Lands (24)
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
Locks(22)
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Smokestack
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
Mana Artifacts (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
Other Finishers (6)
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Masticore
1 Batterskull
1 Powder Keg
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 All is Dust
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant
2 Spine of Ish Sah
I can't remember all the details so I'll just post whatever I remember here. This was a Swiss of 4 rounds, then cut to top 8. There were 14 or so people who showed up for this event.
Round 1:
Game 1:
I lose the die roll and keep my 3 landed hand.
T1: he plays Cursecatcher, which gave me a sign that he was playing Merfolks. I play Tomb then Sphere of Resistance, which gets dazed.
T2: He plays Mutavault, hits for 1 and passes. I Wasteland, then pass.
T3: we both draw, play land, go, I think mine was a Cloudpost.
T4: He plays the 2/1 for 2 Merfolk which revealed TNN. I play Phyrexian Revoker, not knowing what to name and traded with the 2/1 Merfolk after.
a Lodestone gets FoW'ed after.
Mid-game: I resolve a Metalworker, next turn I drop 2 Lodestones, and a Smokestack. He drops 2 Aether Vials the next two turns and we both start sacrificing permanents, but he Vialed the TNN in. I was down to 6, but he's stuck to defend at 9.
Smokestack reached 3 counters and emptied both our fields except for my Lodestone.
(1-0)
-4 Sphere of Resistance, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Powder Keg, +2 All is Dust
Game 2:
T1: He plays Pithing Needle he sided naming Metalworker. I corrected him telling him that Pithing Needle does not stop mana abilities. He then went on saying he made such a bad choice here.
My T1 was a Cloudpost, pass.
T2: He plays another Pithing Needle not knowing what to name anymore. I play a Glimmerpost, then a Phyrexian Revoker for Aether Vial, He miss-Dazed this and I just paid the 1.
T3: He drops a Standstill and passes. I drop Chalice for 2, Standstill pops, but Chalice made it through.
In the next turns, I was able to resolve a Smokestack, and he did 2 more Pithing Needles. I was winning the permanents race in the next turns and resolve a Lodestone, he concedes.
(2-0) 1-0
Round 2:
Game 1: I lose the die roll here.
T1: he goes Gixtan Probe, double Lotus Petal, pass. I play a land, then pass.
T2: he draws and pass. I play a land and cast Sphere of Resistance.
We both do nothing the next turns, but he didn't draw or play any lands, so he conceded not wanting to discard and reveal his deck.
(3-0)
I don't know what he was playing, and I assumed Sneak and Show. -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Tangle Wire, -1 Steel Hellkite, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Spine of Ish Sah
Game 2:
T1: he goes Gixtan Probe then cycle Street Wraith, and plays a Petal. I still didn't know what he was playing and assumed Dredge. My turn 1 was Chalice for 1 from and Ancient Tomb.
T2: he sacs Petal, uses Elvish Spirit Guide, Manamorphoses for BB, plays a Chrome Mox and passes. I still didn't know what he was playing.
I play a Cavern of Souls and Metalworker.
T3: He plays another Chrome Mox and passes. I unload a Chalice for 2 (which later on, he pointed out that I should have played this at 0, as he reveals that he was playing Oops! All Spells), Sphere of Resistance ,Tangle Wire.
He then concedes.
(4-0) 2-0
Round 3:
Game 1:
I won the die roll and played.
T1: Tomb, Monolith, Metalworker. He goes Misty Rainforest, pop for Bayou, and play Deathrite Shaman.
T2: I drop Sphere of Resistance and Smokestack as I didn't draw any threats. He goes Llanowar Elves, Gaea's Cradle, then Nettle Sentinel.
T3: Stax tick to 1, draw, land, pass. He sacs DRS, plays a land then Green Sun's Zenith for a Viridian Shaman taking out my Stax.
T4: nothing really came down on my side. He drew a Wirewood Symbiote and I concede.
(4-1)
-4 Sphere of Resistance, - 3 Smokestack, - 1 Tangle Wire, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Powder Keg, +2 All is Dust, +1 Masticore, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Ensnaring Bridge
Game 2:
T1: I Chalice for 1 off a Tomb, He plays a land and passes.
T2: I played a Grim Monolith, land, and Lodestone. He scoops.
He revealed an Abrupt Decay, and no other lands.
(5-1)
Game 3:
T1: I mulled down to 6 getting: Cloudpost, Vesuva, Metalworker, Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, and Cavern of Souls. I played a Cloudpost and passed. He played a Misty Rainforest, pops for a Bayou and plays a Llanowar Elves.
T2: Vesuva copies Cloudpost, and play the Phyrexian Revoker I just drew naming Llanowar Elves. His T2 was a GSZ for a dryad Arbor.
T3: I play Cavern and Metalworker. He plays a land and passes. (He revealed later that he had a Natural Order and didn't get to play it this turn.)
T4: I reveal Wurmcoil, Sundering Titan, and a Lodestone I just drew, tap my lands and cast Sundering Titan, taking out his Bayou and his Dryad Arbor. (This one hurt him a lot more than I knew.) His T4 was play a land, GSZ for another Dryad Arbor.
T5: I draw a Grim Monolith, play Wurmcoil and Lodestone, swing for 7. He plays a land and another elf.
T6: I draw All is Dust, pay the mana for it and he concedes. He needed that Llanowar Elves for the Natural Order.
(6-1) 3-0
Round 4:
I'm guaranteed Top 8 and my opponent is too, so we drew and got lunch. 3-0-1
Top 8:
Game 1:
I win the die roll
T1: and play Tomb to Sphere of Resistance. He draws and plays Cloudpost. At this moment, I realized that my T1 was a bad play, should have played my Cloudpost over the Tomb.
T2: I Wasteland his Cloudpost. He plays Glimmerpost and passes.
T3: I play my Cloudpost feeling better that I'm the one who has the "earlier" Cloudpost now. He plays Vesuva copying my Cloudpost.
T4: I play Lodestone, and he plays Lodestone
T5: I play Steel Hellkite. His T5 was better as he plays Metalworker, Greaves, equip, reveal 3 artifacts and Staff of Domination and win.
(6-2)
I was very excited to play the mirror. I know now that I can abuse the higher level casting cost if I can keep a Cloudpost or a copy for the next games.
-4 Sphere of Resistance, -4 Chalice of the Void, +3 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Batterskull, +1 Duplicant, +2 Spine of Ish Sah, +1 Phyrexian Revoker
Game 2:
T1: I Cloudpost, he Cloudpost
T2: I play a Glimmerpost and Metalworker. In his turn, he played a Vesuva and a Kuldotha Forgemaster.
T3: I empty my hand, which consisted of a Steel Hellkite, Tangle Wire, and 2 Phyrexian Revokers naming Kuldotha Forgemaster and Metalworker. He concedes
(7-2)
Game 3:
T1: He plays a Cloudpost, I play a Cloudpost
T2: He wastes my post and pass. I waste his post too and pass... (what can you say... mirror match?)
In the succeeding turns, we struggle for Cloudpost control, getting some spells through and then Wasting each other's Cloudpost. I get a Metalworker through a Grim Monolith from the Cloudpost before another Wasteland, and he gets a Staff of Domination and a Metalworker in. He would win next turn, but in my turn, I Duplicant it using Metalworker mana.
He resorted into tapping my Metalworker with his Staff during my upkeep in the succeeding turns with his Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, and he also had a Thespian's Stage. My lands included a Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, and an Ancient Tomb. I play my Smokestack using my lands. He drew blank and passed.
(I also played an Ensnaring Bridge sometime mid-game). I tick my Stax up, drew a Spine of Ish Sah and played Tangle Wire. This became trouble for him as he couldn't tap my Metalworker anymore. He played a Glimmerpost and passed. During my turn I sac something (I sac the Tangle Wire at some point but forgot exactly when), tick up the Stax to 2, played Spine targeting his Cloudpost. He sacs Staff and Glimmerpost and I asked him if he has another Staff in his deck and he said yes. He drew a Metalworker but couldn't play it. I sac the Spine and something else to Stax and cast a Wurmcoil that I drew from the past turns. His turn, he had to sac his 2 lands, then he plays a Cloudpost.
My turn, I sac'ed Ensnaring Bridge and Stax, played the Spine against his Cloudpost. Somewhere I also played a Phyrexian Revoker naming Metalworker after he sac'ed his Staff of Domination. Wurmcoil, Phyrexian Revoker and Metalworker danced sideways for the next couple turns, seeing an empty board, for the win.
(8-2) 4-0-1
I asked him why he didn't board in his Ensnaring Bridges. He said he would have to combo off just to get out of the lock. I think the game 2 Phyrexian Revokers encouraged him to have the Bridges out.
Top 4:
Players just wanted to split the top 4 and seemed like a good idea to me. Their decks were: Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and Enchantress (which is the reason why they wanted to draw, as games takes forever with Enchantress). I didn't really wanna face Reanimator or Sneak and Show, but was interested in an Enchantress match. I went for the draw anyways because the price was pretty reasonable and didn't wanna pass it up.
I picked up a B/R dual, and a R/W dual (both from revised), as I felt like I didn't really needed anything else.
I was definitely surprised how good Smokestacks were for some of the match ups. Tangle Wires did well too and won me games.
I was not expecting much from my first legacy tournament, thinking that I just wanted to experience it and see how it goes. It ended up a success and getting me the top rank for this tourney.
Last edited by darkghost; 06-07-2014 at 10:30 AM.
lodestone golem has 3 toughness. so it dies from a lot.
i do like him. just not here. i rather do something constructive for my win conditions.
plus its a very asseymetrical card if you have a trinisphere in play. then its mostly a 5/3 for 4. meh!
i rather wanted more control. thats why i play many hellkites. only 1 swing to change to the board. Same for ratchet bomb and revokers. take control.
staff of nin/staff of domination/karn liberated are just good sometimes. mostly they are in your hand and you wish they were something else. karn to the sideboard, the rest out the door. Actually i think karn went out for the 3rd copper gnomes. Such a sweet card in the first turns. Brings some real pressure and clears the way for a metalworker. (they throw fow or bolt at it in pure panic)
Its working for me, feels very pure and compact.
I agree with Alex about lodestone: as written in the past, it's a card that doesn't really advance the game plan of kuldotha builds and can be a little too slow for combo matchup. It's the backbone of the stompy builds though, so noone is saying it's a bad card.
@Alex: how do you find th copper gnomes in respect of thran dynamo? In my eyes they have a similar role (ramp into something big), but with copper gnomes you sacrifice some stability and open up to removal in order to gain an unconditional (but one-shot) ramp and uncounterability. Or maybe they are here mainly as a counter/removal bait?
Ignorance is strength
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