Dryad Arbor stacks on shadows. That configuration also can't use more than 1 dryad arbor, and has trouble if it gets dredged in the first dredge. In the bloodghast list i tested some time ago i had something like 5/6 fetches + 2 arbors, and a singleton bayou in my sideboard. Didn't go further in developing that list, though.
I still have to test properly the x creatures, i've been busy with exams, lately. I'm curious to see if it's worth it.
@Unmask:
My suggestion is to stick with Chancellor. It's the only card that turns off t1 discard without wasting a turn (which happens with leyline), delays deathrite shaman and cage, and is a really good reanimation target. Unmask is good, but it does things i don't need.
I am curious either. Can't really understand some of your card choices :] Tell me is this the same trick as you tried before with Dryad Arbor - that was DReturning it to trigger Bloodghasts?. Because packing 8 additional creatures while their only real job is to die and trigger bridges is mmm a waste of space? How often they will end up on your first hand, and for how many turns they will stick in your hand until you pack bridges into your GR, and how often you will curse them not being dredger or instant draw engine?Originally Posted by Thrasher
and if you want to DR them well - If I have a DR and I am able to cast it - I will go for Griselbrand/Ashen Rider/Spy/Troll/Flayer and end the game.
Just loose talking, no offence - please care to explain :D
Honestly it just sounds like you haven't tried it and don't understand how the deck actually works, there are situations where you can DR an X creature for a net gain in Zombies as long as you have another DR for your other DR target and multiple Bridges. Whether or not an X creature is in your hand by the time you discard a Bridge has nothing to do with the card itself and what cards your opponent wants to discard with Thoughtseize, which is the same for any other card. Extra Dredgers doesn't really make the deck any better, I've tried 4 Mossdogs and 4 Gigapedes for maximum redundancy and it didn't have any really tangible affect on the deck. Between starting with 8 cards and an average dredge of 4.5 cards the odds of having at least one Bridge in your graveyard by T2 is really high, Dredge "draws" more cards than any other deck by design. The math of drawing 1 in 8 cards in a hand of 8 cards is fairly simple, you can figure that out for yourself with basic combinatorics. Unlike Gitaxian Probe, which is an admittedly good card, the X creatures do something relevant in the graveyard by adding to the total number of creatures for Nether Shadow and Grave Troll.
I'm not saying it's strictly any better than any of the other choices, but saying it's a waste of space is pretty ignorant. There's nothing wrong with building the deck around Bridge, it's the only removal component of the deck vs Deathrite Shaman and if they want to Surgical Extraction Bridge based on whether or not they think I kept in the X creatures game 2 and I wont just kill them with the rest of the deck any way as I Dredge every turn ... good luck with that.
I prefer Force/Rider personally, but I think the X creature version is probably one of the better "budget fearless" versions of the deck. I have a pretty regular turn 3 win with it which is faster than the old bauble version so I think it's clear the added creature density does make a difference over all.
I admit I am rather a casual Manaless Dredge player also I admit I haven't tried X creatures but I believe asking questions reagarding some new ideas which seems to work for other people doesn't mean I am ignorant or stupid.
OK.
From my ignorant point of view MD is already packed fully - I assume dropping something would be extremely hard. Off course there are different versions with blue counter pack and Whirlpool Riders, black Unmask version, Spy, Griselbrand etc but the main core of the deck remains the same. Since nobody actually put any decklist with X creatures, I would like to know what will you guys remove for them?
There is nothing wrong in building a deck around Bridge from Below yet I believe having few other options of winning decreases your chances of folding when hit by some serious well placed hate. Playing X creatures (again haven't tried it) seems to me like adding win more option - more zombies IF you have multiple bridges and another DR and another DR target in your GY. You said "there are situations where you can DR an X creature for a net gain in Zombies as long as you have another DR for your other DR target and multiple Bridges." Isn't it a way too conditional? Having multiple Bridges in GY aren't recurring Ichorids+Shadows+Therapies enough?
We had this conversation before re: DRing Dryad Arbor for Bloodghasts. I am just trying to understand adding 8 cards/removing 8 other cards for the reason of getting few more zombies IF you have fulfilled certain conditions.
My intuition is that playing those X creatures is not going to be stronger than the Spy list I played, Unmask or not. It seems like we're trying to fix what isn't broken here, especially if you're cutting Probe for those guys. Because holy shit, that's not an option. Gitaxian Probe should literally be in every deck that can afford the space. It's that powerful in tournament play.
The Quad Cities: twice as nice as the Twin Cities.
This and AmokPL's post. The Spy and Rider lists are so streamlined at this point. Most everything is synergistic, but not many things are reliant. That's the primary problem of creatures that die the moment they're played: outside of Nether Shadow stacking, their efficacy is dependent on Bridge being in the yard.
I also agree regarding Probe. I particularly feel that, if your deck is:
-non-Elves combo
or
-plays Cabal Therapy and is not Nic Fit
you should be playing Gitaxian Probe. Incidentally, we are both of these things.
Did Michael Keller ever come back and provide the ideas he had for the consistent turn 2 kills?
I play both manaless dredge and elves, these are my only two decks.
And I fully agree that probe is one of the best card in manaless, I don't understand the reasoning behind probeless lists.
However I disagree for your choices:
- elves & probe: I played 2 several times, and they were amazing. I don't play them anymore because of lack of space in SB - so I even have to play some cards which could have been SB-card in MD, such as the 4th NO. I never played nic-fit, but I could not see any reason why probe would not be good there.
- there are 2 decks that play cabal & should not play probe: LEDdredge, because of lack of space, and Rb goblins, because of ringleaders.
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Played four rounds today starting off 2-0 dropping after losing the following two rounds and being out of contention. Ran the rider version with shoal in the board, hopefully combating the several decks running rip. Long story short was I won every game today losing to cage and rip games two and three. Problem was that every time I had a counter for their hate they had a follow up counter for mine. In one game spy would have won me the game but instead I got to draw two cards from dread returning a rider. Might try the spy version next time betting on faster wins. Four dryad arbors and four spys seem decent?
Top8'd a 90 people (rounded up, i don't know the exact number) with my usual list moving chancellor to the board and bringing forces maindeck. Team america had dominated the previous 2 editions of the league, i thought i wouldn't have seen many of those, and i was right. I lost to maverick in the swiss, playing quite poorly, honestly,(i was still quite asleep)and to elves in the top4 killing me with surgical + good hands. My other matchups were: mud, burn, goblins, miracle, thopters,elves and sneak and show. Force was quite good for the metagame, although i'd still play chancellor in an unknown metagame. Weird but true, flayer was literally the mvp of the tournament, and sickening shoal was a hell of a silver bullet. Rider was fine, although i think i might try a 2-1 split with kelpie or drake.
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Dryad Arbor functionally negates your Spy's ability to flip your library. So, No, it does not seem decent.
You can try Kelpie, Sphinx of Lost Truths, Whirlwind Rider, Griselbrand, along with other cards that probably exist that I am not aware of.
Spy lists requires 0 land. However, they are the most consistent in actually flipping the Library.
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Congrats, Thrasher. It's really impressive to see someone consistently top8 large tournaments w/ a deck, but particularly so with Dredge. Keep it up.
Are you running 3 Rider or 4?
Your SB is 4x Chancellor, 4x Disrupting Shoal, some number of Sickening Shoal...and what else? Still rocking the miser's Wandering Ones?
Griselbrand flips the library a lot easier than I would have thought as well.
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
@carefulmug:
Thank you.
I was running 3 Riders, Sickening Shoal was a 1-of in the maindeck, i had a flex slot and wanted it to be as versatile as possible, and Shoal ended up being good in every game i saw it. I even used it in the match versus thopthers to protect Flayer from StP. My sideboard was:
4 Chancellor
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Faerie macabre
Faerie Macabre has been pretty useless in my recent tournaments, i guess i might replace it with Contagion/Sickening Shoal for the next one.
Ive been thinking its so funny that its almost been two weeks with no update on that amazing turn 2 consistent deck list lol. so many people were waiting for that, only to be completely left in the dark.
Final Fortune and I already had discussed the Phyrexian Marauder and Shifting Wall variation of the deck, which is what I was trying and getting solid results with. I wound up shifting to using the original configuration with blue at the last minute. I was expecting Rock Lee to post a tournament report for the big tournament explaining our round-three match. Unfortunately, that has yet to come to fruition. Basically, it was the ultimate sweat-out victory on his part that had forty people watching in awe. He got extremely lucky multiple times in succession that kept him alive in a round that went to game three and turns, where I lost in the fourth turn. From there I went on tilt, dropped another round out of frustration and played some Vintage where I Top 4'ed.
At any rate, I sold my pimp Manaless deck, picked up nice Power and Duals, and am exploring away from the archetype. I've just exhausted all I can into this archetype and need a break.
Come join the painter team, sorry to hear about the bad beats.
Mind posting the list you were considering running prior to the change?
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FF hit the nail on the head with his list he posted a page or two ago. I just got cold feet at the last minute and switched back because I felt uncomfortable running into hate without protection. At any rate, once you've played the deck for an uninterrupted, extended period of time - years, in fact - there comes a point where you don't like auto-losing to graveyard hate like that. For people new to the archetype it's a thrill, but when you're looking to navigate deep into an eight or nine-round event, you're going to need a lot more luck than you normally would to dodge hate and make it in. I just got tired of that and the loss kind of opened my eyes to the fact that I couldn't stand it any longer.
Bye bye Mr. Keller, thanks for your work! btw. did you know that Keller is a german word meaning Basement/Cellar?
Can we expect the new Primer?
Thanks for all your hard work Hollywood!
''The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword.'' Lord Eddard Stark - A Game of Thrones
-Adsum
-ChrisMeister on MTGO
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