Also Meekstone whould be considered imho. It can be perfect for a safe Jace/Keranos win (angels and Clique just for defense or the last damages)
It's cheap and can get rid of nearly anything but DnT in the format.
Have you already discussed the card?
MUD isn't too bad if you approach it right; I play triple Clique version so that is likely more favorable than Snapcaster-heavy builds. Chalice and Trinisphere usually aren't problematic unless cast very early. Try to land Top early and then you can usually ignore Chalice, but you can also Venser EoT to reset Chalice when needed. All the sweepers are pretty good, Terminus is especially amazing, but even Supreme Verdict isn't bad. Lodestone Golem is frustrating. Watch out for Lightning Greaves giving things like Blightsteel and Forgemaster unexpected haste. Counterbalance is pretty bad, but they have a lot of dead draws which makes Clique and Jace particularly good. Either Clique or Venser + Karakas is ridiculous. Be careful of Karn also.Originally Posted by Basaka
Played in a 40 duals event today with Einherjer's new list (with a small change being snares instead of pierces):
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Entreat the Angels
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
I've been playing the list online with pierces for the last week and cashed in most of the dailies, but I decided to try out snares after looking at the list Truckis was playing with. They did great at my local weekly legacy event, especially in the mirror which is the deck to beat where I play. I found snare to be amazing against pretty much everything except Sneak and Show and a turn-two Lilliana.
For the most part I felt really comfortable with the majority of the list. I'll admit that playing EE for the correct sunburst has always been challenging for me. There have been plenty of times when I've put down EE to blow up something on the board only to realize a turn later that they end up resolving a bomb against me with a different cmc value. Also, in the match-ups where I want Clique (mainly against stoneforge decks) I find a little difficulty in making room for the pair of them. The stoneforge sideboard package that a lot of lists are running looks interesting too, but I'm worried it would mess around with the consistency of the list as it stands.
All in all, I felt like I played fairly well. I don't remember making any glaring errors which was pretty surprising since I was a bit hungover... I do wish I could have scouted the top tables a little more though. I never knew what my opponents were on as I was usually one of the last to finish my rounds... And, as a result, I think everyone knew what I was on.
Round 1: UWR Delver (2-0) 1-0-0
It was a fairly straightforward match. Game 1: my opponent never found a fetchland to shuffle. He managed to get me down to 4 life before I stabilized with an Entreat to close out the match in 2 attack phases. Game 2: I got CounterTop online after playing around his soft counters and he scooped after he couldn't find an answer to Jace.
Round 2: Deathblade (2-0) 2-0-0
I took game 1 after I resolved a Jace on 4 lands that he could never kill -- I ended the game with 20 life :). Game 2 was fairly similar. I sided out my Counterbalances because I assumed he had decays in the side (which he did) and sealed the game up with a lethal Entreat. His hand was fairly light on threats which helped me out a lot since I had plenty of time to find the right answers.
Round 3: Imperial Painter (0-2) 2-1-0
Game 1 my opponent resolves a turn 1 Blood Moon, into a turn 2 Painter's Servant, and a turn 3 Grindstone. Game 2 my opponent puts down a turn 2 Blood Moon and pyroblasts my basics. He's able to kill me with two Servants beating down while I draw nothing but nonbasics.
*I have to say of all the match-ups, I was the least prepared for Imperial Painter. I really didn't know how to sideboard. I wanted to bring in Disenchant, 2x EE, and Pithing Needle at the least but didn't know what would be best to board out.
Round 4: Burn (2-0) 3-1-0
My opponent was playing RDW with Vexing Devils and Grim Lavamancers main. I was able to plow the lavamancers while he was stuck on 2 mountains the entire game. I baited him into wasting a turn casting Price of Progress, of which I promptly snared, before tapping out for Jace with 3 life remaining. He sacrificed his only two lands to Fireblast me in response, but the Force I was holding all game paid off. Jace set up an Entreat for 4 Angels which ended the game with me at 1 life. In game 2, I set up CounterTop and always had the correct cmc floating. Taigo Chan swung every turn for the match.
Round 5: Death and Taxes (2-0) 4-1-0
I found the match to be difficult as the list's manabase isn't as generous as the other Miracles lists out there, but his threats were slow and I managed to stabilize with him at 31 life and me at 9. Back to back Entreats making a total of 3 angels managed to close out the game. Game 2 was very similar with him hovering around 30 life for most of the game. Jace being the all-star he was found plenty of lands which ended up with a lethal Entreat. Luckily I was never blown out by his maindeck Spirit of the Labyrinths -- I didn't have the luxury of playing around them as I was digging for lands. Looking back, I was also pretty lucky he never had Thalia on the board for more than one turn all match.
Round 6: Painter Stone (draw) 4-1-1
Game 1, my opponent assembled the combo before I was able to really set up a board. Game 2 took about 30 minutes as we just drew the majority of our decks. He was able kill my Jace sitting at 13 counters after finding one of his last red blasts after grindstoning himself and topping. I think I had about 15 or 20 cards left before I managed to kill both his Ensnaring Bridges through Disenchant, Snap+Disenchant. Game three was in turns: Turn 1 he plays grindstone and I play Top. Turn 2 he plays Painter's Servant and I try to Force but he pitches Simian Spirit Guide to Pyroblast. I untap and miracle draw Terminus to draw out the game.
Round 7: Maverick (2-1) 5-1-1
I was playing against one of my friends who plays at my local store. He's running a list revolving around Knight of the Reliquary, Stoneforge, and Green Sun Zenith. He's also got the Dark Depths package in there as well. In game 1, he's able to beat me down to 6 life before I'm able to resolve an Entreat for 5 angels which kills him on the back swing. I think he put me on a different deck than miracles since I usually play some flavor of TNN+Equipment against him in the past, so he said he kept a fairly poor hand. In game 2, Mother of Runes is able to protect Dryad Arbor holding a Sword of Fire and Ice. He hits me a few times before I'm overwhelmed. I took out my Counterbalances for game 2, but wasn't sure if he played Decay or not so I ended up bringing them back in for game 3. In game 3, my board state consisted of Counterbalance, Top, Rest in Peace, and Jace but we end up in turns. There was an unfortunate tournament violation as we were wrapping up the game forcing a DQ in my favor. I think I would have won the game either way though...
Top 8: Death and Taxes (1-2) 7th/100+ players
I was on the draw against a stock DnT list piloted by a fairly competent opponent, although I didn't know what deck he was on until he put down Aethervial turn 1. Fatigue made me forget a couple times that his revoker named my Top, but the real killer was not having enough lands. I always felt I was a mana short every time I needed it. In game one, an early Thalia plus double port kills me before I can really do anything. Game 2, I managed to stabilize and Entreat for 3 which he couldn't answer. In our last match, I was able to find enough answers and made him waste plenty of turns equipping his creatures that I Plowed or Disenchanted. Right before I was able to Entreat on my drawstep, he finds a Port and taps down one of my two white sources making it impossible to stabilize. I think given one extra land on my side of the board, I would have cleaned the game up, but otherwise a good match!
I ended the tournament at 7th which I was happy with. I think I would make a cosmetic change or two in the sideboard the next time I play the list, but it worked out pretty well. (I've been calling the list Austrian Ponder as a shoutout to Philip)
Against DnT, I sided out -3 Counterbalance, -2 Spell Snare, -2 Force of Will // +2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Disenchant, +2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Entreat the Angels. I only saw Cataclysm once in the 5 games I played, but the entire time I wished I had Wear/Tear as both both my opponents played Oblivion Ring alongside their artifacts. I also wished I had some dedicated sideboard card like Sulfur Elemental or Tsabo's Web or even another land in the board.
In other matches, there have been times where I wished I had a basic mountain instead of volcanics, but I'm sure the manabase can't handle that. I've also wanted a Supreme Verdict a few times instead of Engineered Explosives, but I suppose EE is versatile in a lot of different match-ups. For me, EE is probably the hardest card to play correctly in the list, but I do see its power.
Einherjer, how have you found the DnT match-up to be with your new list? Also does anyone have advice for siding against Imperial Painter? I'm assuming it's something similar to Elves. I just never know where to make room.
Last edited by princeofperasia; 05-19-2014 at 02:03 AM.
I was at the event also. Congrats!
Matt Bevenour in real life
First of all, congrats on your finish. Looks like it's a big tournament and you show them how it's done. Painter is Not the same as Elves. With 8 Blood Moon effects, you have to be able to have a plains in play early enough. If Painter lands a Grindstone, then it will severely mess up your CB-T, or just Top in general. Also, Spell Pierce is a dangerous gamble because they could just make Mana using Spirit Guide in response.
Storm variants and Elves should be very favourable. In my experience, Show and Tell and graveyard combo decks are favourable after boarding. Off the top of my head, can't think of a single combo deck that would give this deck trouble post-board...unless you consider 12-post a combo deck. That matchup is virtually impossible. My main LGS has three guys that have 12-post...not the best place for Miracle, lol.
Oddly enough, I don't have a good record vs MUD either. Some of the posters here say it's not that difficult, but if you look at most Miracle lists now, they run a lot of 1 mana spells.
I'd start by boarding out your Jaces. They usually just get slaughtered by REBs, assuming they even landed in the first place. You can board out like a Ponder or two and probably your Spell Snares also. Try to keep them from comboing off early and you should win the long game. Throw Cliques into their REBs EoT so that you're free to resolve Counterbalance during your turn. Resolving Top + Counterbalance should be your big fight, even with all their REBs, they'll have a hard time beating a floating 1cmc + 2cmc. Obviously all our White spells are very strong because they have to have a Painter in play naming Blue to do anything about them. Some builds SB 1-2 Koth, so watch out for that. Things like EE, Needle, and Disenchant are also good.
Chalice isn't bad against us, but it doesn't hit any of our power cards. The two problematic things that can happen are that they can catch you with Chalice before you've landed your Top or that they can use Chalice to protect early Forgemaster/Metalworker shenanigans from Plow. Either one can be mitigated in the long game with Disenchant, EE, or Venser. FoWing Chalice is usually wrong unless your hand is just stacked with 1-drops and have no better plays in sight. Saving FoW for Karn, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, or other random tricks is probably better.
Once you hit the mid-game and even under Chalice, you can use Jace and Clique to control their draws and sweepers like Terminus and Supreme Verdict to clear any pressure they managed to land. It's not an easy matchup, but familiarity makes it less difficult to navigate. They are very clunky at times and have a hard time working their way out of things like Venser/Clique lock or even Jace. Entreat is usually lethal for them.
If you play the matchup often and have any insights, I'd love to hear them. The best I've got is to be aggressive and that Entreat and Clique/Venser + Karakas are very good.
Hi Miracle players!
I'm a long-time stoneblade-then-deathblade player who got tired of greedy manabases and loves to play Jace. As such, I decided that it was time to try out Miracles. Now the problem I ran into is that all of the lands I own are in Esper colours. After doing a bit of research on whether it makes sense to build Esper Miracles, I decided against it. However, someone I know recommended I give a straight UW version a try - at least until I can get a hold of a couple of Volcanic Islands. The main attraction of this build is a rock solid mana base (10 basics!), as well as main-board Back to Basics. I hope it's OK to discuss this list here even though it's not UWr. I'm in doubt over some of the card choices and really could use some advice.
I played the deck at exactly one weekly tournament so far, where I went 3-2. Nevertheless, it feels super powerful and fun. Here's what I ran:
Creatures
1 Snapcaster Mage
Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Terminus
3 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Back to Basics
Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
7 Island
3 Plains
Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Rest in Peace
3 Meddling Mage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
-------------------------------------
So, what I learned from my first tournament:
1) I boarded the 2 cliques in every single match. Thus, I want them in the main.
2) I lacked some catch-all removal against problematic permanents on g1. I'm putting in an Unexpectedly Absent for this, which was in the original list I was provided, but hadn't arrived in the post yet.
3) Back to Basics is either dead or a huge bomb. My friend I've been talking to says having such a swingy card doesn't seem like what Miracles wants to be doing. I see what he means, but on the other hand, I feel like not playing Back to Basics means there's no reason not to do the red splash.
4) Entreat the Angels is great, and I was very happy to have 3 of them. Entreating early without worrying that I'm using up my wincons was good.
5) I liked the one snapcaster, though I'm not sure if I have enough effects for him to be great.
6) Resolved planeswalkers on the opponent's side are a bitch (this I knew from theory, but in practice, man it's annoying)
7) Having a total of 2 Supreme Verdicts was great. Not having to worry about getting it countered by delver decks made my life a lot easier
---------------------------------------
So with the above learnings, I have some changes that I need to make to the list, and I'm having a really difficult time figuring out what to cut. I need to bring in 3 cards into the main:
- 2 V. Clique
- 1 Unexpectedly Absent
The way I see it, the cards that are candidates to remove for those are:
- 1 Swords to Plowshares: I run 5 wrath effects, and one of the cards I'm bringing in can double as creature removal in a pinch
- 1 Counterbalance: I saw a second of these when I had one in play multiple times throughout - most lists I've seen play 3, too
- 1 Snapcaster Mage: I'm adding 2 creatures to the main, and I have less snapcaster-able effects than most standard lists
- 1 Counterspell: Seeing 2 of these at the same time felt clunky. However, I'd like to keep the 2nd counterspell if I remove the snapcaster.
- 2 Back to Basics: The other option is to simply get rid of these (or move them to the sideboard). However, as I said above, I'd be apprehensive to remove them altogether, since that leaves little reason to not run the red splash
I'm of course very much open to other suggestions, as well as comments on the sideboard. If I do not end up moving the back to basics to the board, any other change will leave me with 2 open sideboard slots, so any advice on those would be welcome as well.
Thanks for reading!
43
Switching B2B and Clique is exactly what I'd recommend. Also "If I don't play suboptimal cards in the main, I'll have to splash", does not convince me as a justification for MD B2B ;) B2B clearly is SB material, unless your meta does not feature basic lands. Also: even if you run them in the SB their surprise effect will be gone once your locals know, you'll bring them in.
I recommend against Meddling Magi too - even in XYZ_Blade.decs they're so-so, despite the fact that they can turn into actual threats via equipment. Replacing them with Flusterstorms seems feasible especially since you'll need nimble answers to fast Combo.
On a more general note:
7 Miracles is overkill imo, unless your meta is flooded with dumb Aggro decks. 3 Terminus, 1 Supreme Verdict (1 Terminus + 1 Verdict in the SB) & 2 EtA (possibly 1 in the SB) should do.
You beat me to it. I was also going to recommend against the Meddling Magi because of the interaction with Terminus and other sweepers. Flusterstorm is a great option to have in the sideboard. I would recommend having 2.
Also, I like the Baneslayer in the sideboard
p.c.
Thanks for both your replies. On thinking some more, it makes best sense to switch Cliques and Back to Basics. I've also removed one STP for the Unexpectedly Absent.
Regarding Meddling Mages: I see what you both mean. My logic (which I brought over from playing stoneblade) is that it's best to diversify hate against combo. I don't want to be shut down by a single defense grid, for example. When I played stoneblade against combo decks I was always told it was a headache for combo players because they had to deal with permission, discard, AND hatebears. I try to emulate this in Miracles, though I haven't managed to test extensively yet.
Baneslayer is super fun to play. It's a huge bomb, especially against decks without white, many of which even board out their removal. It might be really cute, but I've boarded it in in every fair matchup.
Tomorrow I'll get the chance to play again. I think I'll leave the list like this for now. I'll try and take some notes so I can figure out where to go next.
I can see why Baneslayer is useful, especially against the BS tokens all over the place. However, it's a huge 5 Mana investment, at the risk of being Liliana-ed. If you're gonna tap out for 4 or 5 Mana and you suspect your opponent is holding a Liliana, I feel Elspeth's better than Baneslayer in that match-up. If you really need the life gain and your opponent's on something else, I guess Baneslayer is the way to go.
if Lifelink and 5 mana is your point, why not Batterskull?
It's also Terminus proof and harder to remove than angel
So I'm slowly building this deck over time, coming from playing UWR control in Modern.
My list is far from optimal, but here is what I'm aiming for in the near future, as a complete list is probably a year or more away.
3 snapcaster
1 clique (dont own yet)
2 jace (only own 1)
4 top
3 counterbalance
3 counterspell
3 spell pierce
1 spell snare
4 terminus
2 entreat
1 supreme verdict
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 StP
4 tarn
4 mesa
2 hallowed fountain
1 steam vents
1 mountain
5 island
2 plains
2 mystic gate (dont own yet)
SB:
2 Red Blast
2 pyroblast
1 entreat
1 EE
1 verdict
2 Wear/tear
2 RiP
1 Relic
2 Swansong
1 Surgical Extraction
The things I'm aiming for are the 2nd jace, the clique, and the mystic gates. what I'm asking is do you guys think that this list is relatively competitive? I'm just getting into playing it so from my experience so far the list as it is, is pretty good against some decks, played vs a BW deathblade and it wasn't bad, but vs RUG delver for example its pretty rough. I'm on the fence about selling my modern UWR and Merfolk which would give me plenty of money for a 3rd jace, and Fow, allowing me to save up for some duals. But I'm kinda wary of the "eggs in one basket" approach, despite absolutely loving the deck. Its the kind of control experience I craved for in modern.
What should I make it my goal to save up for outside of what I don't have in the list above?
What are you guys thoughts on this?
Thanks for the help.
- Mike
Last edited by Ltj999; 05-19-2014 at 11:02 PM.
Is anyone still play Squadron Hawk based lists? I play it frequently in the place of counterbalance. You then have to swap some tops for some more ponders to up the blue count. It's weaker vs combo obviously, but it really grinds through other miracles decks and lilliana midrange decks. I play an extra counterspell main and 4 meddling mage and spell pierces in the board to help vs combo. I'm not sure how much of a stoneforge package is right to include. I used to run 2 sfm, bskull/jitte and entreat main w/ extra sfm/skull board. I'm now running max sfm, 2 bskull, jitte, and no entreat.
There is no better feeling than recycling hawks with brainstorm, jace, clique, and terminus. I've had miracles opponents resort to bringing in meddling mage in the mirror to name hawk. The cushion they provide vs jace make the mirror all about stopping entreat.
Ultimately, the main lists everyone is running is proven to be effective, just suggesting a return to an old variant if the meta requires or you feel like mixing it up.
-IJ
Hi Mike,
I added some comments to your list, keeping in mind that you're running on a tight budget, trying to get the biggest oomph out of every buck.
3 snapcaster
1 clique (dont own yet) - Clique's are expensive and not mandatory (many run them in the SB), before saving for a Clique, I'd be trying to get my hands on a Tundra, which will have 8 times the impact (due to your fetchies)
2 jace (only own 1) - 3 is the absolute minimum for competitive lists, and there's no real alternative unfortunately. I would run 2 Jace Beleren's on top of your JTMS in the meantime though.
4 top
3 counterbalance
3 counterspell - just saw you don't own FoWs, so 3 is feasible.
3 spell pierce
1 spell snare - w/o FoWs those could be upped to #2, or you could work in a Flusterstorm
4 terminus - 5 sweepers is excessive, unless your local meta is flooded with dumb Aggro. I would strongly suggest an EE instead of Terminus #4, and maybe even work in another EE or a Detention Sphere. Considering your list does not have access to FoW as emergency outs, it might need more ways to handle (resolved) non-creature permanents.
2 entreat
1 supreme verdict
4 brainstorm
4 ponder - though I'm not a fan of the 4 Ponder version, as 12 cantrips (counting Top) can awkwardly clog your hand with non-business. In your case they definitely make sense, as you'll find yourself desperately digging for your singleton Jace more often than not
4 StP
4 tarn
4 mesa
2 hallowed fountain
1 steam vents
1 mountain
5 island
2 plains
2 mystic gate (dont own yet) --- 21 land is not enough. Even with 4 Ponders 22 is the bare minimum imo. Otherwise you'll be digging for land most of the time, undermining the actual benefits of cantrips. I'd say add a fetchland.
SB:
2 Red Blast
2 pyroblast
1 entreat
1 EE
1 verdict
2 Wear/tear
2 RiP
1 Relic
2 Swansong - not a big fan tbh. CB #4 should occupy one of those slots imo. The other should be a Flusterstorm.
1 Surgical Extraction - with all those cantrips, 3 graveyard hate slots should be sufficient, and I'd upvote Surgical Extraction over Relic in builds running 3 SCMs
Last edited by klaus; 05-20-2014 at 09:07 AM.
So I'm never main decking them, but I appreciate them as a sideboard plan. At that point; is it better than Stoneforge and Batterskull? It takes up much less space and is much more effective at killing people. Unless you plan on playing a singleton Mistveil Plains or Elixir of Immortality in your sideboard, too.
Which I'm all for, by the way. The more fucking about the better.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
Wow, thank you so much for your help! I really appreciate it.
I'm definitely holding off on getting any more fetches with all the reprint buzz going around. And I think I'm going to change the manabase doing -2 ponder +1 plains +1 glacial fortress.
Also I've been playing with an optimal list supplemented with proxies at my LGS, as they only run proxy legal legacy events. I'm moving from Baltimore to Chapel Hill NC where there seems to be a huge legacy scene, they run one sanctioned and one play-test legacy event per week, with only one or 2 modern events per month, hence my thoughts at selling off my modern deck. The list above is what I hope to have within the next 2 months so I can start to play in some of their sanctioned events.
So what it sounds like from your post I should be aiming to get to 3 jace first, then work on a tundra, and finally the FoW. How often are the FoW sided out?
As my red splash is only for the board I might eventually aim for just 2 Tundra, and go with two mountain as my red sources.
Thanks again for the help.
- Mike
Jace and Tundras are both great to have. Against non-combo, I would say that FoW is one of the go to cards to board out, but it does depend on the match up.
I recommend having one mountain and one steam vents as your red sources, just in case you need the blue off of an arid mesa. It is better to have the option versus not having it.
p.c.
If your playing this deck on a budget and with less than 10 fetches, ponder is going to be the best thing you put in you deck. Run 4. They let you fix your suboptimal mana base and let you find your powerful cards like jace or snap caster that you might not have enough of. You don't really need a splash. The reason red is splashed is because adding to volcs goes basically unnoticed. Once you starting running basic mountains and stream vents, the red splash is not even worth it. Just run more actual counterspell or other hate cards.
Also ya, FoW probably comes out in 70% of your matchups. It's bad against every fair deck. You only keep it in against combo and unfair control decks like UB tezzeret, scapeshift nic fit, burning wish loam, or the mirror. FoW is very important for beating combo and useful in those unfair control matchups, but fetch lands and jace are far more important for the deck to function.
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