I do not like too much spot discard vs deathblade. A few thoughtseizes are fine but don't over do it. It's a grindy matchup which makes them dead late draws and terrible cascades. I do not mind force of will that much and leave a few in to answer key cards in the mid to late game (hardcasting is fine or pitching after a resolved AV).
Also, I find Lilliana to be the strongest card in the deck in most matchups and rarely side her out.
I think the suggestion to side her out in favor of spot discard vs miracles is wrong. I'm open to debating the issue but I won't likely change my own strategy. Spot discard is at it's worst against miracles, doubly so on the draw. Miracles is a deck that plays off the top. Sure only a few cards matter- Top and Entreat. But you will almost never catch those with discard. Instead, you need force of will. Yes, i understand V clique is a fine answer vs lilliana, but they have to find it, resolve it, and have it live before your lilliana gets up to a decent loyalty.
-IJ
Okay I will try that SB option with -2 FoW and +2 Thoughtseize vs Deathblade. I don't know if I would side Night of Sou's Betrayal against only (average) 3 cards in their deck. Especially with 3 Liliana / Deluge in the mainboard.
And when I play Miracles I usually like to use the opponent's Liliana against them. You do this by floating an Entreat with SDT and making the Liliana's controller go into Hellbend. Since discard spells isn't that good against Miracles the instant they put a top onto the board. Be careful going to hellbend vs Miracles.
Only 3? They have 3-4 TNN and then 3-4 Snapcaster/Vendilion. Sure they still get value of Snapcaster but a 2/1 should not be ignored and it makes your Liliana even better. More answer is better and often when you lose is because of TNN. They have discards and counter(atleast preboard) so you cant be sure Toxic Deluge will resolv and Liliana is not a reliable answer.Originally Posted by Jessenator
Yeah, Columbus SCG might work, get in touch with me and we can figure out specifics.
I understand how Vision offsets the card disadvantage from playing Force of Will, and also that Toxic Deluge can buy you enough time to fire it off. I also see the validity in the argument that the deck takes better advantage of card quantity over card-selection since the curve is higher. But these aspects of AV are mainly applicable against midrange decks, which is where BUG Cascade doesn't have too much trouble to begin with.
Running Ponder simply makes the deck better against combo and tempo, which is where I think BUG Cascade can struggle. I'd rather keep a middling opening-7 with a Ponder in it than be forced to mulligan down to worthwhile hate. I'd also much rather topdeck a Ponder if I am behind on board state.
To use a nerdy metaphor, think about Speed Runs of popular video games, let's use Super Metroid for example. Running Ancestral Vision is kind of like stopping to pick up additional Missiles and Energy Tanks, getting the Grappling Hook and Screw Attack etc., which all makes for a 'safer' run but adds unnecessary time. Ponder is like skipping out on every optional item, breaking the sequence by doing wall jumps and other exploits, but still ultimately finishing the game albeit with only 3 energy tanks and 25 missiles (or whatever it is). The point I'm trying to make is, it doesn't matter if you win with 7 cards in hand or zero, the point is that the opponent is dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liGge39QoxM
This entire argument/comparison might be more applicable to differences between BUG Cascade and BUG Delver, but I think that BUG Cascade simply becomes a stronger deck against most of the field if its able to accelerate into its threats/answers/bombs. Ponder is restricted in Vintage for a reason.
Perhaps 2/2 or 3/1 split is worth testing. This way you keep up the Blue count for FoW, but can selectively side out whichever one happens to be weaker in a given matchup.
Well don't forget Ancestral Visions is banned in Modern.Yeah, Columbus SCG might work, get in touch with me and we can figure out specifics.
I understand how Vision offsets the card disadvantage from playing Force of Will, and also that Toxic Deluge can buy you enough time to fire it off. I also see the validity in the argument that the deck takes better advantage of card quantity over card-selection since the curve is higher. But these aspects of AV are mainly applicable against midrange decks, which is where BUG Cascade doesn't have too much trouble to begin with.
Running Ponder simply makes the deck better against combo and tempo, which is where I think BUG Cascade can struggle. I'd rather keep a middling opening-7 with a Ponder in it than be forced to mulligan down to worthwhile hate. I'd also much rather topdeck a Ponder if I am behind on board state.
To use a nerdy metaphor, think about Speed Runs of popular video games, let's use Super Metroid for example. Running Ancestral Vision is kind of like stopping to pick up additional Missiles and Energy Tanks, getting the Grappling Hook and Screw Attack etc., which all makes for a 'safer' run but adds unnecessary time. Ponder is like skipping out on every optional item, breaking the sequence by doing wall jumps and other exploits, but still ultimately finishing the game albeit with only 3 energy tanks and 25 missiles (or whatever it is). The point I'm trying to make is, it doesn't matter if you win with 7 cards in hand or zero, the point is that the opponent is dead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liGge39QoxM
This entire argument/comparison might be more applicable to differences between BUG Cascade and BUG Delver, but I think that BUG Cascade simply becomes a stronger deck against most of the field if its able to accelerate into its threats/answers/bombs. Ponder is restricted in Vintage for a reason.
Perhaps 2/2 or 3/1 split is worth testing. This way you keep up the Blue count for FoW, but can selectively side out whichever one happens to be weaker in a given matchup.I guess we just have different philsophies on deck building and playstyle. I respect your judgment on Ponder, it's obviously a powerful card. I wouldn't mind playing cantrips but Sylvan Library is probably the best card to do that in a mid range deck, far out valuing Ponder in my opinion.
I also would be very reluctant about keeping a no-hate hand w/ a Ponder, obviously the match up is dependent but I have no problem mulliganing a mediocore / slow 7 card hand when a deck like this gives you effects that draws you 3 cards. I can definitely see adding a Ponder, maybe taking out the Tombstalker for it, but I just don't see going down below 4 Ancestral Visions. Probably just going back and forth between arguments.
I'm in China at the moment visiting family, I'll be back around the 7-8th of June! Message me on FB if you want to discuss this further, living arrangements, etc.
Any thoughts about James Rynkiewicz's list?! discard is back into MD, and also does Strix... its pretty interesting... what do you ppl think about this?!
seems like another fine list to me. It's basically your read on the meta and how you want to configure your deck to it. If your meta is a ton of combo, don't play Shardless or play Shardless with lots of discard. Lejay's list is focused on sacrificing combo matchups game 1, which means discard has to go and that gives a higher probability of cascading into Ancestral Visions. Sylvan Library is another form of card advantage as well for 2 mana. The Deluge also answers Elves game 1 and True-Name Nemesis. And gives a timely reset into a turn 4 Ancestral Visions after suspend.
There's nothing wrong with the other guy's list. Just meta/deck building preferences.
I really like the two strix now that RUG seems to be coming back into fashion.
I've been on the non-Shardless BUG control lists recently, and I feel the same way. I briefly dropped Strix for 2 MD Deluge, but Strix is better against RUG because it allows them to misplay by attacking incorrectly, costs less, dodges Spell Pierce, and at worst eats a Bolt that would otherwise kill DRS.
Damn, here I thought I was being smart by actually floating cards on top of my library with top! Damn, and you also do this tactic?
Liliana is the best card vs miracles, as the deck is so tight on having lands in play, that ultimating is the most important thing.
I've been cutting Liliana and the spot discard vs miracles in my current round of testing. I feel like lots of ca and Force of Will are the best cards in the match up. Rushing a liliana ultimate while powerful is definitely and "all in" approach to the problem. I don't know if this is correct or not as I may just be unlucky in my Liliana races. Also, if the miracles player doesn't have a top out then the Lilli race is a lot more winnable. I think Miracles is a little bit favored against us, but we can outgrind them. I think some late fow are the best answers in that approach. Anyway, more testing tomorrow, good luck guys.
cheers
defector
Isn't liliana like one of the best cards against miracles?
qft
It is when they don't have top, if they have top, she can be pretty mediorcre at times as they'll just float lands/useless cards on top to draw and discard with.
Not to say I'd board her out, but wouldn't call her one of the best
That said, Miracles is favorable for us I feel, if the game drags out long enough they can play a huge entreat but honestly a resolved visions is backbreaking for them, and a second one is near impossible to come back from in my experience
Nevermind terminus against a deck with Shardless Agent is usually never that good
I think Liliana is one of the best cards against Miracles, no matter if they have top or not. Sure, they can float cards on top to affect you. But what exactly can they float to make you lose the game? Jace isn't terribly exciting because you'll have Tarmogoyf / Shardless to put pressure on the opponent (can be deadly sometimes), basically only Entreat/Vendilion are your outs here. With that being 3-4 cards out of the deck, (not counting your interactions), I don't think we should be afraid to use her vs Miracles. If cast early, I don't think Miracles can come back unless exceptional conditions are met.
The more time you give Miracle player to durdle with Top, the more time they have to find these blow-out answers to your hellbent board state. I would just jam her whenever possible, and don't weigh the possibility of them having outs too heavily.
Don't forget Ancestral Visions is the most powerful in this matchup too!
Please feel free if your thoughts differ from mine! thanks!
I've lost all the games where I jam her early. It's not a huge sample, say 0-4 or so. Maybe its just a bad run. Its gotten me a little gun shy of using her though. I agree with a vision being the best card. I love it. Ive also started to ad top in response to terminus miracle draw. Must kill top!
How do you usually lose to Miracles? Do you get Top-locked? Do they Plow/Verdict in such a way that you can't pressure them effectively? When I resolve Lily against Miracles they usually end up empty-handed pretty quickly and then I get to fire off her ultimate, frequently multiple times (in one particularly grindy game I got to split their permanents three times).
If Terminus is the problem, make sure you hold your fetches after you have 4 lands in play so you can shuffle your library. Miracles also is slow enough that you can usually set up your Cascades with Sylvan and Brainstorm, so your Agents should almost invariably go for the 'right' cards. If you aren't running MD Force, I'd bring them in. If you are, I'd keep them in.
Yeah with Deadguy, I generally bait all of their removal until I get to land a Liliana, and if I do, it is pretty easy for me. Different deck, but still. They have no way to answer her outside of flashing in a dude with her at low loyalty, and maybe an EE or a DSphere generally.
@btm10
In my 4 losses to Miracles I got killed by Clique twice, Jace once and Entreat once. They were able to keep me off creatures and Jace beats Lilli, Clique beats Lilli and Entreat beats player. Again, its a small sample size, so maybe they just dug well? I have a thing for seeing t1 tops, so it may have been better alignments for them than me? I play with force in the main and I keep them in. It could be that I just need to play it more, as I'm sure I will my local has a few dedicated Miracles players. I think the Lilli ultimate is awesome, but haven't gotten it off yet. I'll keep grinding. I'll do my next local in a few weeks, I'll post a report for analysis.
cheers
defector
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