[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[lilevo]

I have been playing the 12 post version for a while now and after a lot of matches paper/MODO I really think cavern of souls should be in the deck, it really helps against the delver mu. Here is the list I have been currently playing:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/233462

I have also streamed a few Legacy Daily events on weeknights, I don't currently own cavern of souls online but I should have them for the next stream and it would be really cool to have a few MUD players watching next time.

[Alex Holland]

Wasteland is a must have.

No it's not. Actually i have been testing crystal veins in place of the wastelands. And they both have benefits; acceleration vs locking out. Fixing vs stopping their land combo. I dont know. Depends on the deck.

[Alex Holland]

The Conspiracy cards type won't be legal, but that card will be.

I don't mind that on turn two. You probably won't get the destroy everything clause going unless you're actually ahead on the board. Its essentially a one sided Howling Mine for the most part and its not bad at all.

If only I have time to test it. Someone test it for me!

I think its really bad. Wich MUD player would want his turn 1/2/3 permanents destroyed?

If id say sac ur trinisphere draw 2 would you do it? Destroy grim monolith and draw 3? I will not test it but then again i did never liked bottle cloister too

[Adri]

No it's not. Actually i have been testing crystal veins in place of the wastelands. And they both have benefits; acceleration vs locking out. Fixing vs stopping their land combo. I dont know. Depends on the deck.

Crystal vein is an interesting issue. You have to be damn sure that your spell will not get countered when you sac it, otherwise the loss in tempo is devastating, except if it is a way to bait a counter into summoning trap (and even in this case, you have to be pretty sure of what you are doing). I tested it and I now include only one in my list as 9th solland, in order to increase the chance of casting lodestone golem on turn 2 in some match ups. If you want to paly more acceleration, I would recommend lotus petal.

About wasteland: The track record of the MUD lists that did well in tournament clearly shows that waste is a must have. Saying otherwise is just misleading for people who try to understand the deck.

[darkghost]

Wasteland is a must have.

It shines in conjunction with lodestone golem and thorn of amethyst in all the combo match ups, and help take full benefit of sundering titan in the UWr miracle MU. Taking out wasteland does not make bad match ups any better (i.e. decks that runs both wasteland and discards, the best example being Jund), and it weakens good match ups. It can save your ass against Price of progress, same for affinity in situations where one artefact land less makes the difference b/t life and death.

It was not included in old combo-ish MUD welder version that tried to cheat Fattys into the game by using faithless looting discard engine, simply because it made the mana base too shaky. However, in a “classic” MUD mana base that I pilot, I strongly recommend to run them.

I never tested the 12 posts. I just do not feel like testing it. But, I think it should be the same for the 12 posts version. Sideboarding out a piece or a couple of wastelands in some MU is however a totally conceivable option.

I agree fully. I almost took them out before a tourney. Good thing I didn't cuz I'm never gonna change my mind about them ever.

[lilevo]

I can see wasteland being bad with so many decks running DRS.

[nerv2004]

I think its really bad. Wich MUD player would want his turn 1/2/3 permanents destroyed?

Lets be fair, this card might as well just say, "at the beginning of your upkeep draw a card" as the other text is likely to never be relevant. The opponent is not going to let you nuke the board unless its to their advantage. Im really just comparing it to staff of nin now as bottled cloister has other uses, namely hand protection.

Your trading the pinging ability of staff for earlier card draw and a more reliable casting cost.

Re wasteland, its not necessary to play the deck but it certainly improves it in my opinion (grim monolith is necessary). Alex has a fair point that both cvein and wasteland are effecting the tempo of the game, just in different ways. Are you still playing the non welder/post version from your scg run?

[Alex Holland]

Lets be fair, this card might as well just say, "at the beginning of your upkeep draw a card" as the other text is likely to never be relevant. The opponent is not going to let you nuke the board unless its to their advantage. Im really just comparing it to staff of nin now as bottled cloister has other uses, namely hand protection.

Your trading the pinging ability of staff for earlier card draw and a more reliable casting cost.

Re wasteland, its not necessary to play the deck but it certainly improves it in my opinion (grim monolith is necessary). Alex has a fair point that both cvein and wasteland are effecting the tempo of the game, just in different ways. Are you still playing the non welder/post version from your scg run?

Eh u got me mixed up i hate post builds ;)

History does show that cards that give the opponent a choice are eh bad. I think those cards should be red btw..But ill let the believers who will test it free to convince me otherwise. 4 mana is a lot better then 5 in MUD.

[Adri]

Lets be fair, this card might as well just say, "at the beginning of your upkeep draw a card" as the other text is likely to never be relevant. The opponent is not going to let you nuke the board unless its to their advantage. Im really just comparing it to staff of nin now as bottled cloister has other uses, namely hand protection.

Your trading the pinging ability of staff for earlier card draw and a more reliable casting cost.

Re wasteland, its not necessary to play the deck but it certainly improves it in my opinion (grim monolith is necessary). Alex has a fair point that both cvein and wasteland are effecting the tempo of the game, just in different ways. Are you still playing the non welder/post version from your scg run?

Ok, so then, the only “must have” items in the deck are the soft lock package (e.g. cotv, trinisphere, golem and sphere of resistance), of which you want to include a sufficient number to regularly have one in your opening hand (from 8 to 10). Then you need the mana to consistently play then in the first two turn of the game, because the earliest you play a soft lock piece, the better it is. So sollands IN. So the core of the decks are those eighteen cards.

Then you have to build the deck around that. Soft lock pieces translate into the game as multiple "time walks". You’d better play the most powerful cards available in the legacy pool to make a competitive deck. So, going into a ramp strategy is the right direction. In that regard, grim monolith is an obvious choice, but wasteland is too, not only because it is powerful but also because it has obvious synergies with the soft lock package. It gives you more "time walks".

I experienced to draw wastelands and felt that the card was bad in many games. Why? There is a rule of thumb in Legacy according to which it is the player with the lowest curve that should play its wasteland first. MUD is the wasteland.dec with the highest mana curve (and by far). So we are more often in a position to get wasted than not. I think that is why wasteland is sometimes awkward, and one may be tempted to take them out of the list. But that would be an error in my view.

In terms of MU, MUD has balanced to poor match up againt aggro wasteland.dec. But the deck is build to crush all the other decks that do not attack our mana base and let us attack theirs: Miracle, UR delver, Storm, Reanimator et alii. One cannot win against everything, but one can choose to focus on his strength. That is what maked the deck a viable choice in many metagames.

Again, this is not true for the welder-faithless looting build that goes for a comboesque route. But welder builds are not very well positioned in today’s meta, because the aggr

I think some of you will still disagree, and that is perfectly fine with me. It is up to beginners to make their own choice.

(And as far as deathrite shaman is concerned, phyrexian revoker is your friend)

[Souleater734]

Ya that's correct, I don't mean to sound like a smart ass but you guys don't have to wasteland at the first opportunity. On the draw t1 wasteland against any daze deck is fine and often times correct. Obviously you probably know this but I see a lot of new players with this deck wasteland the turn they play it every time.

[Aesir]

I have been playing the 12 post version for a while now and after a lot of matches paper/MODO I really think cavern of souls should be in the deck, it really helps against the delver mu. Here is the list I have been currently playing:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/233462

I have also streamed a few Legacy Daily events on weeknights, I don't currently own cavern of souls online but I should have them for the next stream and it would be really cool to have a few MUD players watching next time.

Do you have a link to your stream? It would be pretty cool to pick up some tips and tricks from watching a more experienced MUD player play.

[nerv2004]

Eh u got me mixed up i hate post builds ;)

I know, didnt you play a version with factories at scg a while ago?

[Shawn_ozz]

I'm new here. Hey everyone. Thanks for the great thread. I've been running this at my local shop's legacy night and play testing with pretty good success. Out of the top decks UR delver, sneak, food chain, lands, uw stone blade, uwr delver, storm, miracles, explorer pod, and dredge. I can pull a win about 50%. I haven't played bug, taxes, thresh, jund, or painter.

I believe this deck to be positioned very well right now. Chalice at 1-2 shuts most all the decks in the meta down. Then the sphere effects just close games fast. Not to mention I've turn 2 a Karn that got the scoop.

I don't really run a side board but what I've been thinking of doing is running the metalworker forgemaster combo for game 2 to throw the op off. Any sideboard suggestions would be great. Thanks

Deck: MUD Stax

Creatures:10
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Spells:26
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
2 Staff of Nin
2 Karn Liberated

Lands:24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

I don't really run a side board but what I've been thinking of doing is running the metalworker forgemaster combo for game 2 to throw the op off. Any sideboard suggestions would be great. Thanks

Creatures:19
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Spells:17
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
4 Trinisphere
2 Staff of Nin

Lands:24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

SB: 15
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 All Is Dust
2 Spine of Ish Sah

[darkghost]

@Shawn_Ozz: you're better off having forgemaster combo stuff main and side in stax and others game 2. I play stax main and don't switch them out g2 but i get people siding in pithing needles and revokers automatically game 2. You having the forge master g2, in that case, can end up getting you the game loss.

[Souleater734]

It seems odd to be running smokestacks with crucible of worlds or something.

[Shawn_ozz]

@Souleater The flex spot is the staff or Karn for crucible if I'm getting wasted game 1. Most of the time I'll usually be sacing a tapped monolith, a duplicate trinisphere, or a chalice dropped at 0. Seldom do I need to stax for 2+

@Darkghost What if I want to stay with the stax theme g2? The second list is what I had been running. It just didn't feel as consistent. I'd probably run this sb. Maybe changing the spellskite's since I don't have to protect metalworker or forgemaster. Any suggestions??

3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 All Is Dust
2 Spine of Ish Sah

What do they name with revoker/needle?? The only thing activated in my list is monolith which pithing can't hit and Karn. Ok I see what you're saying do the combo g1 then when they put in the needle effects for g2 run the stax sb. Seems good!!

Coercieved Portal seems ok. I'll be trying them out but I do like to ping a delver, mother, lavamancer there's lots or x/1's out there!! I don't think it's gonna come out any sooner then staff tho. We can't generate 4 mana on t1 but can get 7 t2.

[Souleater734]

I don't know I've never been a fan of transformative sideboards in anything other the combo decks that can win game 1 99% of the time. You're probably just better off just playing rhe stax without forgemaster and metalworkers in the 75

[darkghost]

The flex spot is the staff or Karn for crucible if I'm getting wasted game 1. Most of the time I'll usually be sacing a tapped monolith, a duplicate trinisphere, or a chalice dropped at 0. Seldom do I need to stax for 2+

Yeah, Stax @ 2 is usually good enough. If you're count up to 3, it must mean that you're in a really bad position, or you'll end up giving up your permanent count lead soon.

@Darkghost What if I want to stay with the stax theme g2? The second list is what I had been running. It just didn't feel as consistent. I'd probably run this sb. Maybe changing the spellskite's since I don't have to protect metalworker or forgemaster. Any suggestions??

I suggest siding the stax out against tempo and storm combo, especially if you're on the draw. Stax vs tempo is manageable if you're on the play because of Chalice and Sphere. Against Sneak and Show, and Reanimator, you can keep 2 to 3 in still. Flickerwisp will for sure mess your count.

For your other list, let's see what other people might suggest.

What do they name with revoker/needle?? The only thing activated in my list is monolith which pithing can't hit and Karn. Ok I see what you're saying do the combo g1 then when they put in the needle effects for g2 run the stax sb. Seems good!!

Not against tempo on the draw, unless they are cutting corners on their land count. (Delver decks and burn)

I don't know I've never been a fan of transformative sideboards in anything other the combo decks that can win game 1 99% of the time. You're probably just better off just playing the stax without forgemaster and metalworkers in the 75

Metalworkers can still be broken, and I would always choose to keep it in.

[nerv2004]

Coercieved Portal seems ok. I'll be trying them out but I do like to ping a delver, mother, lavamancer there's lots or x/1's out there!! I don't think it's gonna come out any sooner then staff tho. We can't generate 4 mana on t1 but can get 7 t2.

Sure you can have 7 mana on t2 but your probably wont. You ar FAR more likely to have 4 mana on t2 then the nut draw. By having it at 4 mana it just makes it more likely that you will drop it a turn earlyier, giving you an extra card then you would have with staff. It certainly needs testing and most likely wont make a world of difference but its little tweeks like this which are important to the decks development.

[Shawn_ozz]

@nerv2004. I see what u mean. Very seldom to we actually get to 7. Deck development is he name of the game lol.

@darkghost. Being on the play with this deck makes you really thing about how you play definitely against tempo. A loss g1 makes a hard decision for g2. What would you suggest cutting MB for metalworkers? Plus do u think it beneficial to put lightning greaves back in?

@souleater. I think I'm gonna be developing the stax version for a while. I need to get a list of the upcoming tournaments in the Dallas area so I can get those weekends off. I just missed scg Dallas. One of the guys Austin plays at our shop a Geek World Tyler, TX Austin Palmer made top 8.