Miracle Control

[RiverCake]

I would try to cut the Legend creature pack for 2xCouncils's Judgment in my UW Miracle

2 councils's judgment
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mystic Gate
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
5 Island
1 Ponder
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Divert
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict

[klaus]

I would try to cut the Legend creature pack for 2xCouncils's Judgment in my UW Miracle

2 councils's judgment
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Mystic Gate
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
5 Island
1 Ponder
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 1 Divert
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict

List looks legit, though with 2 MD CJs, you won't have to pack 2 Disenchants in the SB, as both fill similar roles. Taking a closer look, your SB actually looks terrible
Let me suggest something closer to my liking:
1 EE (against non-creature, permanent-heavy lists)
2 Rest in Peace (up your MD by a Ponder to see SB cards more frequently)
1 Pithing Needle
3 Fluster Storm
1 Spell Pierce (2 main)
1 CB (3 main)
1 Supreme Verdict (1 main)
1 Terminus (3 main)
2 Vendilion Clique (they are actually grand VS Combo & dedicated Control)
2 meta slots // possibly EtA #3

[FortyThree]

List looks legit, though with 2 MD CJs, you won't have to pack 2 Disenchants in the SB, as both fill similar roles. Taking a closer look, your SB actually looks terrible
Let me suggest something closer to my liking:
1 EE (against non-creature, permanent-heavy lists)
2 Rest in Peace (up your MD by a Ponder to see SB cards more frequently)
1 Pithing Needle
3 Fluster Storm
1 Spell Pierce (2 main)
1 CB (3 main)
1 Supreme Verdict (1 main)
1 Terminus (3 main)
2 Vendilion Clique (they are actually grand VS Combo & dedicated Control)
2 meta slots // possibly EtA #3

I'm not the guy you are giving advice to, but do you think that EE is playable without the red splash?

[Griselpuff]

It's playable, but not as good as you can't kill Liliana.

[Dzra]

Why run EE if you have Council's Judgement? I think Disenchant has more value than EE because it can tag Batterskull at Instant speed.

[Griselpuff]

So... what the heck do people do for the D&T match-up? It seems incredibly complicated. I'm not saying it's lopsided either way, but rather it seems EXTREMELY skill intensive.

I followed Phillip's SB plan this weekend, and it seemed okay (take out CB, leave in FoW). The main problem is that even when you answer Vial/Cataclysm, they have a bunch of stupid equipment that make each creature lethal. SoFI in particular is annoying for Jace.

Do people counter SFM? Or save their Wear/Tears for equipment? Just wondering about some general strategic tips for approaching this match-up.

[amalek0]

So... what the heck do people do for the D&T match-up? It seems incredibly complicated. I'm not saying it's lopsided either way, but rather it seems EXTREMELY skill intensive.

I followed Phillip's SB plan this weekend, and it seemed okay (take out CB, leave in FoW). The main problem is that even when you answer Vial/Cataclysm, they have a bunch of stupid equipment that make each creature lethal. SoFI in particular is annoying for Jace.

Do people counter SFM? Or save their Wear/Tears for equipment? Just wondering about some general strategic tips for approaching this match-up.

I was playtesting this matchup from the DnT side of things earlier this morning with friends getting ready for the next open. Several games, I had batterskull and sofi out, and got blown out by sapphire charm phasing out the token with both equipments on it. The games I lost tended to be the ones where I lost batterskull permanently to sapphire charm, because they then were able to answer everything I did on a 1 for 1 basis. The games I won were on the back of prison-heavy draws, with thalia, revokers, mindcensors, and cannonists. The games I lost tended to include more stoneforge mystics, Serra Avengers, or mirran crusaders. The board plan that won me the most games was all-in on hate pieces with cataclysm or Armageddon, the times I tried beatdown heavy boarding plans were pretty much losses.

[Polish Tamales]

Why run EE if you have Council's Judgement? I think Disenchant has more value than EE because it can tag Batterskull at Instant speed.

You should be comparing Disenchant with Wear//Tear, not EE.

EE has more applications and can wipe boards in specific match ups. I doubt ANY opponent will risk naming an additional target beyond the card you named with Judgement, no matter how much you think you can next level them.

With EE, you skip straight to wiping the target you need and sometimes additional targets, assuming you have the manabase to support it. For me, EE is just too versatile in various match ups and in slots where I want something against Show & Tell, I'd rather have O-ring/Sphere. Not saying Council's Judgement is horrible, just Sorcery speed for double white could be a problem in some match ups.

[RiverCake]

List looks legit, though with 2 MD CJs, you won't have to pack 2 Disenchants in the SB, as both fill similar roles. Taking a closer look, your SB actually looks terrible
Let me suggest something closer to my liking:
1 EE (against non-creature, permanent-heavy lists)
2 Rest in Peace (up your MD by a Ponder to see SB cards more frequently)
1 Pithing Needle
3 Fluster Storm
1 Spell Pierce (2 main)
1 CB (3 main)
1 Supreme Verdict (1 main)
1 Terminus (3 main)
2 Vendilion Clique (they are actually grand VS Combo & dedicated Control)
2 meta slots // possibly EtA #3

The SB is indeed not the best
But I love the RIP Helm Combo in the SB. I think the Combo is realy underrated in Miracle :) just give it a try :P

[twndomn]

List looks legit, though with 2 MD CJs, you won't have to pack 2 Disenchants in the SB, as both fill similar roles. Taking a closer look, your SB actually looks terrible
Let me suggest something closer to my liking:
1 EE (against non-creature, permanent-heavy lists)
2 Rest in Peace (up your MD by a Ponder to see SB cards more frequently)
1 Pithing Needle
3 Fluster Storm
1 Spell Pierce (2 main)
1 CB (3 main)
1 Supreme Verdict (1 main)
1 Terminus (3 main)
2 Vendilion Clique (they are actually grand VS Combo & dedicated Control)
2 meta slots // possibly EtA #3

There's no point having 4th CB in the SB. You might as well have E. Tutor. You can tutor up a CB, or tutor other hate anyhow. EE is a great sweeper and you can use it to deal with TNN as long as you run 3 colors, as a contingency last resort.

[Mackan]

So... what the heck do people do for the D&T match-up? It seems incredibly complicated. I'm not saying it's lopsided either way, but rather it seems EXTREMELY skill intensive.

I followed Phillip's SB plan this weekend, and it seemed okay (take out CB, leave in FoW). The main problem is that even when you answer Vial/Cataclysm, they have a bunch of stupid equipment that make each creature lethal. SoFI in particular is annoying for Jace.

Do people counter SFM? Or save their Wear/Tears for equipment? Just wondering about some general strategic tips for approaching this match-up.

As I wrote a couple of pages back;
The most important thing against Dnt is mana. I can't stress this enough. Never fetch duals at any point, even if you allready have a turndra in hand. Deal with their threats, needle aether vial and try to play jace on an empty board. If that's not possible you should try and race with 3+ Angels pre-board (because of Swords to plowshares) or 2+ Angels post-board (because they only run Ratchet bomb). Also, don't be fooled by Sword of fire and Ice. It's a great card against you but the important thing is to keep their creatures of the board, not their equipments (unless it's Batterskull). Also, sensei's divining top is key. If all of their creatures are dead and you deal with Vial then Rishadan port should be no problem. Just find a top and activate it with the land they target with port. Try to get 4-5 Basics in play and sandbag the rest for the worst case scenario which is Cataclysm. Respect that card and Aether Vial which means do not cut any Force of will in the matchup.

Perhaps someone has a particular scenario we can discuss?

[Adryan]

Don't save your artifact removal for Equipment. The most important part of this MU is Aether Vial. Without they cant tax mana while deploying threats and Jace becomes a lot better, when not almost every creature has flash. When they have Vial at 3 play around Flickerwisp if possible, don't use targeted removal like Swords to Plowshares on your mainphase etc.

[ThoSha]

Another great way to get them is to float a Terminus and take all the combat damage to tempt them to get greedy and put another threat onto the board.
Has worked for me many, many times even if it doesn't seem likely, even decent D&T players do that here and then.
Also drawing Entreat in your upkeep in response to their port for a huge number does the job more often than not.

In terms of card selection i have to say Spell Snare is very good against them and is still underplayed in a lot of miraclelists.

[Dzra]

Death and Taxes is a hard matchup to talk about because there's so many different scenarios from both sides. I would almost exclusively save FoW for either a Vial in the first couple turns or a Cataclysm as the game gets longer. SFM can be dealt with by Clique, Plow, Disenchant, Terminus, Venser, and whatever so no need to counter her. Their most dangerous equipment is SoFI by a lot. There are some boards where Counterbalance or Jace really shine and some boards where either or both are fairly bad. Entreat is always good, especially when it can double as a wrath. If they don't have a Vial then all you have to play around is Mindscensor, which is a lot like playing around Stifle but more easily done. If they have a Vial then you need to play around Spirit of the Labyrinth as well as Phyrexian Revoker (once they Vial in Revoker, you no longer have a chance to respond). If there are any specific scenarios, I could give better advise.

[Griselpuff]

Mid to late game vials can also be dangerous if you're not close to entreating. The problem I ran into is that I would sweep the board, but then any creature plus sofi became a deadly threat. Thanks for all the advice so far

[twndomn]

Mid to late game vials can also be dangerous if you're not close to entreating. The problem I ran into is that I would sweep the board, but then any creature plus sofi became a deadly threat. Thanks for all the advice so far

1. Run 3 snapcasters + 4 StP, no shortage of threat removal.

2. Run Sulfur Elemental and protect it to prevent DnT from equipping.

[princeofperasia]

In terms of card selection i have to say Spell Snare is very good against them and is still underplayed in a lot of miraclelists.

I completely agree with Spell Snare being criminally underplayed in Miracles. I really think Spell Pierce is the weakest card in the list. Spell Snare is a complete house against any deck but Sneak and Show. Sure Snare doesn't hit Liliana, but it hits their actual win-conditions like Bob and Goyf. It's also valuable in the mirror (especially if you're on Schonegger's list which doesn't have Clique g1) and shuts down storm tutors when you're not playing against the likes of Stoneforge, Thalia, Bob, Goyf, Hymn, Snapcaster, etc. Snare is also good anytime you draw it whereas Pierce is a pretty poor draw on turn 10.

My local meta is pretty light on Sneak and Show as is the MODO meta, so my assessment could be skewed. Don't get me wrong, I was doing pretty well with Pierce, but since I switched to Snare I think I've cashed in every daily I've played online except for one.

As for DnT, I've also had troubles in the past (and posted about my dilemmas here before) but it's hard to just rely on pure removal alone. Even playing 4 Swords to Plowshares plus 3 Snapcaster Mages has given me some difficulty when my opponent has a Sword of Fire and Ice on the board. It becomes necessary to find all your removal while at the same time making land drops in the face of Ports, Wasteland, and Thalias. I think playing 2 Disenchant effects in the sideboard instead of 1 would definitely help, and obviously playing a dedicated card like Sulfur Elemental or Tsabo's Web would shift things in your favor.

I've been curious about Keranos though. Perhaps it could help if you manage to find 5 mana. I've seen some people, like ThoSha and Truckis, play a singleton in the board. How has it been working for you? Do you bring it in vs DnT?

[Mackan]

I completely agree with Spell Snare being criminally underplayed in Miracles. I really think Spell Pierce is the weakest card in the list. Spell Snare is a complete house against any deck but Sneak and Show. Sure Snare doesn't hit Liliana, but it hits their actual win-conditions like Bob and Goyf. It's also valuable in the mirror (especially if you're on Schonegger's list which doesn't have Clique g1) and shuts down storm tutors when you're not playing against the likes of Stoneforge, Thalia, Bob, Goyf, Hymn, Snapcaster, etc. Snare is also good anytime you draw it whereas Pierce is a pretty poor draw on turn 10.

My local meta is pretty light on Sneak and Show as is the MODO meta, so my assessment could be skewed. Don't get me wrong, I was doing pretty well with Pierce, but since I switched to Snare I think I've cashed in every daily I've played online except for one.

As for DnT, I've also had troubles in the past (and posted about my dilemmas here before) but it's hard to just rely on pure removal alone. Even playing 4 Swords to Plowshares plus 3 Snapcaster Mages has given me some difficulty when my opponent has a Sword of Fire and Ice on the board. It becomes necessary to find all your removal while at the same time making land drops in the face of Ports, Wasteland, and Thalias. I think playing 2 Disenchant effects in the sideboard instead of 1 would definitely help, and obviously playing a dedicated card like Sulfur Elemental or Tsabo's Web would shift things in your favor.

I've been curious about Keranos though. Perhaps it could help if you manage to find 5 mana. I've seen some people, like ThoSha and Truckis, play a singleton in the board. How has it been working for you? Do you bring it in vs DnT?

@Spell Snare
I think I've written enough about Spell Snare allready but I totally agree that it's great. Pierce is a tempo-oriented card and does not belong in a deck that want to enter the late-game. Some arguments have been made that Pierce helps you to get to the late game but I rather play non-taxing answers like Counterspell or cards that increase your velocity like snapcasters/cliques/ponder over Spell Pierce.

@Sneak Attack
The only thing I _really_ like vs them is Pithing needle, which also stops aether vial. If sneak becomes more popular again I would put a one-of enlightened tutor (for more needles) and maybe o-ring/venser. Show and tell is dealt with by blast, counterspell, flusterstorm allready so the matchup is not terrible unless they have the nutdraw of turn 3 sneak + turn 4 sneak with fow (which makes CB unreliable). Im glad that Sneak attack is less common now because the answers to Sneak Attack generally don't overlap against other strategies. And like you said I think we can ignore it for now :-)

@More general ideas about the DnT matchup
Because DnT is a grindy deck without cardselection each game is very different and rarely over (if you manage your mana) before turn 10. It's really hard for me to pinpoint what is important and what is not. I just go on and trade 1for1 until they start drawing blanks or I cast Entreat the angels, Jace or Batterskull. I really like Batterskull against their strategy as it slows down the game and sometimes generates CA. Batterskull keeping their stoneforge+sword or their thalia+karakas at bay saves precious removal for something else while also negating them mana or even draining them for 4! Dealing with Thalia+karakas with Batterskull is also huge if they draw multiples. You are not draining them but instead you lock their mana/vial and buy a huge amount of time for entreat to instant-win. Like many other Aggro/prison strategies their deck is built to deny threats but have a hard time dealing with a resolved Batterskull (because they side out their swords). Flickerwisp is an answer I forgot to mention earlier but I don't think the card is that great in the matchup anyways and unless your opponent knows you have batterskull some are sided out. Remember that flickerwisping batterskull is not the end of the world if you are at a healthy lifetotal. Clearing the board kills the wisp and often buy enough time to reset batterskull. My advice if you are playtesting is to keep their decklist available, this way you can easily cross off each of their threats at any point of the game. The moment you get surprised is the moment you loose against DnT :-)

@Keranos
I started playing him right after BOM in the slot where I played Supreme Verdict earlier. My reasoning was that I needed more against Shardless BUG and having a continous removal/planeswalker-killer/draw-engine on board they can't ever get rid of was appealing. I am convinced that Keranos is the perfect answer to their strategy but im not sure if the 5-mana pricetag is worth it outside that matchup (and therefor if it's worth it in the sideboard at all). I think it's unreliable versus decks with Rishadan Port (but not wasteland) and to slow versus elves. It's nice in the mirror, against delver and to diversify my threats versus random hate. I also like that it can't be Spell Pierced. I am unsure about the number of bombs/wincons we need in the 75. My current configuration is 2 clique, 4 jace, 2 entreat main and 1 keranos, 2 stoneforge, 1 batterskull in the side. My approach to sideboarding is that I want cheap and efficient answers (i.e needle, reb, flusterstorm, wear/tear) or high-impact cards that fill a certain funcion my maindeck does not (i.e Keranos, Batterskull) or both (rest in peace, grafdigger's cage) and I haven't played Keranos enough to see if I can "afford" the value over tempo switch from Supreme Verdict versus the other decks where Verdict is mvp. More discard in the meta also requires more bombs over answers but right now Im happy with this number (no snapcasters, 4 top, 4 brainstorm, 2 ponder).
If you play Venser I recommend trying out Keranos instead. I played both in the daily yesterday but I think that it's to much.

/Marcus (Truckis)

[klaus]

I'm not the guy you are giving advice to, but do you think that EE is playable without the red splash?

Just a few reasons why EE is nice even non-splashed:
* kill Chalice + Mox Diamond at once
* kill MoR + Vial at once
* kill Jitte+SFM + XYZ at once
* kill Thopter Foundry + CB at once
* kill Needle (on Top) and XYZ in one blow
* being able to play it pre-emptively to save mana (i.e. turn 1 against Goblins)
* EtW/Lingering Souls/Zombie tokens (yes, sometimes 6 sweepers is better than 4-5)
* Enchantress
* catch-all answer: never dead

There's no point in having 4th CB in the SB. You might as well have E. Tutor. You can tutor up a CB, or tutor other hate anyhow.

4 MD CBs more often than not seemed overkill to me, since its performance is meh especially when drawing multiples against Vial.dec or archetypes with few CMC1 spells (don't get me wrong CB is still awesome) - hence, I'm really happy with the 3/1 split.
In MUs you want CB (or RiP), you want it NOW, not next turn. I've had my fair share of E.T. SBs and was NEVER happy about its card disadvantage aspect. If you want more consistency and see your SB cards more frequently, add more of the same hate spell or take Einherjer's route and go with 4 Ponders. I'm not on the 4 Ponders train (2 is the perfect number for me), but I'd much rather bump them up to the full playset before considering E. T.

[Misplayer]

I went 6-3-1 at SCG NJ

Shardless 2-1
RUG 1-1-1
RUG 2-0
MUD 2-1
UWR 1-2
Team America 0-2
Aggro Loam 2-1
Deathblade 2-1
Reanimator 2-0
Dredge 0-2

My first RUG opponent was super nice and we chatted too much. UWR opponent won the whole thing - I probably played too loose after he told me he didn't play much legacy and punted game 1 to me. Vs BUG I whiffed on a sweeper G1 and G2 I kept an awful hand and was punished. Dredge wasn't close but I still feel it is a winnable matchup.

In general I think I played well, got lucky a few times (esp R1) but sideboarded terribly especially vs the Delver decks. I also lost to RUG and UWR in the trial the night before. At times I think I play around everything (Daze, Stifle, Pierce, Waste) to my detriment. RUG feels fine because RIP is so powerful against them and Counterbalance locks out all of their threats. I lost to UWR because a fast Delver was able to get me low enough that I had to burn removal on Batterskull for multiple turns, then True-Name came down. I also lost to the triple True-Name draw with Force backup.

I know the conventional wisdom is to take out all your Forces vs Delver, but it feels like in those early turns having a free counterspell is quite good. Force plays around Pierce/Daze more effectively than anything outside of Flusterstorm and doesn't require awkward fetching like REB. I also like being able to set up Counterbalance (they will often let this resolve if ahead on board) and then float a Force to push through a Terminus; this is often a 4-for-1 that ends the game on the spot.

Is Jace good vs UWR when they bring in REB? I suppose if the answer is no then Force is bad for the same reason. Is Entreat good? I've shaved those cards in G2/G3 then found it difficult to put a game away once I've stabilized the board. Meddling Mage is annoying as well.

BUG is completely different as all of their threats get hit by Swords, Deathrite is a slow clock that doesn't require an immediate answer, and their real haymakers are non-creature spells (Library, Null Rod/Needle, Liliana to an extent). I find that I want some number of Forces for these cards too. Maybe keeping in 2x Force here is acceptable as you won't get blown out by REB.