Hey rancOr,
I'm not sure if I've mentioned this on the source anywhere, but I have talked to people in person about the "meh" feeling with venser. I do agree that it's the softest card in my list right now, although it's been Ok at least so it's stuck around. On the other hand, that Jace idea seems super interesting. I'm going to try one in place of the venser and see how it works. As for the 2 drop creature, I know it's not super high impact, but I still like knowing that once I can combo with Tidespout, having the 2 drop means that it or any shardless agent instantly wins the game. It certainly could be cut if something else proves to be better.
As for the visions thing, I won't argue how good it is against some decks. That the reason I put it in my sideboard in the first place. But at least for my meta, it just wasn't pulling it's weight. It could definitely reenter my sideboard in the future, but right now I dont feel like I need it.
You can't pull out the RUG from under me, CUZ I AM THE RUG!
Hi,Originally Posted by rancOr_
If I remember right there was some discussion (or mentions at least) about Jace TMS in the old thread. If I manage to get one I definitely want to try it as a 1-off. Like you said, it searches for combo pieces, bounce problematic creatures and it is also a win-con if things go south.
While it's true that 1 (or 2) Venser is situational, I think that replacing it by a Jace (or 2) could lower the creature count too much. Having a Food Chain with a 3 drop (or a 2 drop + 1 mana) on the field + Venser in hand is really great for 2-1ing the opponent during his turn and buying precious time whereas a Jace in the same situation requires you to be tapped out on your turn. Furthermore, the element of surprise coming with the flash creatures are awesome.
But Jace remains Jace and it may be of course a good choice!
Why was Natural Order discarded from the main deck? If edict effects are problematic, there's always little green men in the deck, also fetch > Dryad Arbor.
Hi,
I'm using food chain + natural order main and show and tell in side. Turn 2 progenitus is quite nice or turn 3 progenitus with a guy. My current list:
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Forest
2 Island
Creatures
3 Misthollow Griffin
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Fierce Empath
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Progenitus
2 Birds of Paradise
Spells
4 Food Chain
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Misdirection
4 Natural Order
3 Manipulate Fate
Sideboard
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Show and Tell
2 Omniscience
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Terastodon
This deck with NO or without NO are really two different things. With the NO package the grind-plan becomes much less viable as you aren't able to fit in as many midrange tools (Baleful Strix, Abrupt Decay etc) if you are trying to keep the two different combo elements viable at the same time. On the other hand it gives the deck two combo axes which can be harder to fight... Like say you combo off game one with Food Chain and they then board in hate to hit the Food Chain like Revoker and Krosan Grip only to see you cast Natural Order on turn 3 for a Progenitus in game two...
So, really, it depends on what kind of strategy you want to play out and what kind of options you prefer to have.
One hypothesis would be that for a large tournament where no one knows you, then running the NO plan becomes better than it would be in your local meta. This is due to people not knowing what they're in for and being overwhelmed by the different combos. I'm not sure if that's entirely correct. Having run both versions of the deck I currently prefer the grindier version with no NO plan as it leaves the deck with more room to maneuvre at the cost of being less explosive but that's just me.
Regarding Jace, I used to play a singleton Jace way back in the day but gave it up a long time ago. I think it might be time to try him out again, maybe as a two of
The NO Pro package will speed up the deck quite a bit since it's a one-card combo compared to Food Chain which is a 2/3-card combo. Why do more find the grindier version viable? The deck isn't a control deck, shouldn't it be up to speed with other combo decks? And what is Griselbrand's role that Fierce Empath > Emrakul/Progenitus doesn't already fill. It's not like you have life points to spare once you go off to use his ability since this is slower than Reanimator/Dredge/Show n' Tell and less consistent.
Have you already tried out Plunge into Darkness??
It digs for Food Chain while also removing the Griffins that run across.
Has anyone tried foresight from alliance? is manipulate fate for any 3 cards and u still get to draw a card can be used to dodge cabal therapy etc..
Lim-Dûl's Vault is better since it's a blue card and you only pay 1 life per 5 cards. Digging for one of the 4-of card (Food Chain) in a 60-card deck I imagine can be an onerous task.
Not to mention the risk of inadvertently removing your win condition (Emrakul/fatty) from the top X cards of your library.
They can still therapy you on their main phase.
I was saying playing a mixture of them so they don't know which one to name.
1: The grindier version gives the deck an option that most other combo decks don't have which is the ability to actually play the long game through hate by having a "real" midrange plan with value creatures like deathrite shaman, baleful strix, shardless agent and even the griffins. If you sacrifice the midrange plan for the NO plan you will get a more explosive combo deck, sure, but you will lose your ability to play the long game when your combo options get shut down through hate or counter magic.
Which is better? The way I see it, if you roll back the midrange strategy in order to have more explosiveness in your combo plan you will end up with a slow and comparatively weak deck. NO for progenitus on turn 2 will be great many, but far from all of the times you pull it off. Food Chain is a stronger combo but requires more set up. Having both can make it hard(er) for opponents to hate the deck out. Still I think the deck will be more capable of making a deep run if it's set up as part midrange part combo. From experience the combo(s) alone will be too clunky and slow to set up / easy to disrupt before we are dead if we don't have a way to fight the long game through creatures and removal.
2: Griselbrand is a win condition in and of himself and can draw you into the pieces you are missing. If you already have a food chain and a griffin for infi mana then of course a fierce empath will never find griselbrand but always emrakul. Griselbrand gets a place in the deck because you can get him into play with a food chain but without a griffin. This is explained in the primer.
You could replace griselbrand with any 8-drop but I believe him to be the best there is when we don't have infinite mana.
At the moment I'm trying a hybrid version:
Lands:
4 misty rainforest
4 wooded foothills
1 verdant catacombs
1 bayou
3 tropical island
3 island
2 forest
1 dryad arbor
1 ancient tomb
Creatures:
3 noble hierarch
2 birds of paradise
2 deathrite shaman
4 shardless agent
3 misthollow griffin
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 progenitus
1 griselbrand
1 fierce empath
1 aethersnipe
Others:
4 food chain
4 natural order
4 force of will
1 misdirection
1 sylvan library
4 brainstorm
3 manipulate fate
Sideboard:
show and tell -tech
OR
4 tarmogoyf
2 jitte
counters
other hate
This version is a little bit slower than my usual full-combo, but this one has a better late game. Haven't tested this version much though. Also the fierce- 'snipe-griselbrand could be something else.
So i'm new to this thread and this deck. I'm trying to collect the deck and i'm actually fairly close. I wan't to play it as a none black version (so no deathrite) and i'm thinking of going white instead or meddeling mage, swords to plowshare and rest in peace (to exile my griffins if they get bolted). What do you do against artifacts? such as BU tezzeret og MUD. The lodestone golem is pretty hard to handle since it shuts down the griffin/food chain combo. Any ideas?
Thanks!
Qasali pridemage maybe? You can cascade into it and it's a decent beater, esp with hierarch.
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I personally went with a more black variant with baleful strix in the two drop slot and a notion thief in the board. Death rite is just so good - the extra toughness actually makes a big difference and each ability he adds makes him a threat. That being said your removal options for artifacts in green white would be creatures: quasali pridemage, harmonic sliver; spells: natures claim, disenchant, krosan grip to name a few. Still I would recommend sticking with the black splash!
Food Chain
Creatures: 21
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Griselbrand
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Aethersnipe
1 Wall of Blossoms
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Fierce Empath
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Misthollow Griffin
Spells: 11
1 Misdirection
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Combo: 7
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Food Chain
Lands: 21
1 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
Sideboard:
1 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Swan Song
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Show and Tell
3 Ancestral Vision
So I've been testing this variant without Hierarchs but with Shardless Agent. My Cascades feel a bit better and having Empath to start a Food Chain is nice vs. the Hierarch versions that typically eschew it.
Out of curiousity, how does the Show and Tells out of the sideboard work out? It would seem to me, that having just three worthwhile fatties to Show and Tell in (Emmy, Griselbrand and Tyrant) is a far cry from being enough to make that a reliable plan. I guess the two Empaths figure somewhere in the equation as you can tutor up a fatty but that makes for a 6cmc Show and Tell.
I just pick up all the pieces execpt 3 manipulate fates recently, against what match-up do you think you would take the SNT transformation?
Team Blood, Beijing.
Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands
With my combo oriented list I bring S&T in against faster decks (combo, affinity, maybe burn) and at least bug with abrupt decay. Also if I'm suspecting hate cards like medling mage, revoker etc. to make a surprise factor. Also against other show and tell decks I bring fatties in but not show and tell.
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