[Deck] Sneak and Show

[DavidHernandez]

I agree with Beebles. What I dislike about multiple Misdirection is that you have to discard to make it work, so the opponent still succeeds in his plan. Then, next turn, they hit you again and take your business spells. I'm a huge fan of Leylines for this reason, and they come down uncounterable.

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[GoblinZ]

Todd Anderson piloting Sneakshow is on camera now, he just crushed a merfolk deck

It is wierd that the merfolk player play chalice and board in hurkyl's recall against a sneakshow deck....

[Megadeus]

Yeah Hurkylls Recall is literally a blank. Not sure what that was all about. These Chalice merfolk decks seem bad.

[JPA]

Good luck to Todd in the Top 8, it's been too long since we won a trophy.

[Zombie]

Good luck to Todd in the Top 8, it's been too long since we won a trophy.

I hope you won't ever again, we don't need more S&T players ;_;

[rxavage]

I hope you won't ever again, we don't need more S&T players ;_;

I feel obligated to apologize in advance because I plan on taking SCG Prov next week.

[Zombie]

btw, out of interest, do you folks think S&S would survive Emrakul and Griselbrand getting the hammer and having to use the more conditional big fatties in the format?

[JPA]

btw, out of interest, do you folks think S&S would survive Emrakul and Griselbrand getting the hammer and having to use the more conditional big fatties in the format?

Griselbrand was the reason it became Tier 1. So no, I don't think it would keep its position as combo-DTB #1, but it wouldn't die completely either.

[Megadeus]

It would be pretty bad tbh. Griselbrand would be worse to see banned for this deck. If both got banned? This deck would probably not be a thing. People would probably go back to NO for cheating in fat men.

[DavidHernandez]

btw, out of interest, do you folks think S&S would survive Emrakul and Griselbrand getting the hammer and having to use the more conditional big fatties in the format?

Based on results, this is not the "end all" of decks. Emrakul and Gris don't warp the format enough to be banned. That's like saying we should ban Delver of Secrets, who appears in more winning decks.

[Zombie]

Based on results, this is not the "end all" of decks. Emrakul and Gris don't warp the format enough to be banned. That's like saying we should ban Delver of Secrets, who appears in more winning decks.

I have way less issues with Delver tbh. It's not good for the color balance of the format, but I don't feel like the game is just plain dumb when I play against Delver decks apart from the T1 Delver T2 natural flip, waste you nutdraw, and even that can be mitigated by simply playing basics. That or when they play TNN.

S&T, on the other hand, just feels dumb every step of the way. The card itself - oh hey, it's the actual threat so you have to stop it instead of being able to stop it partway like you can with engine decks - you don't even have to expose the win con to counterspells afterwards like you have to with broken mana engines. It's a 3 mana sorcery that puts stuff into play from your hand so it evades most traditional card-logistic indicators of brokenness being afoot - cards coming into play from unusual zones, lots of cards being played in one turn, expensive spells being cast, and so forth. Unlike NO, it requires no sacrifice in board position to even try to get one through.

And then the win cons themselves are just about the least situational and, frankly, offensively dumb cards ever printed - Bargain with Lifelink (???), Emrakul, oh hey all my cards are free into Komplete Kombo In A Kan ("Now with a built-in failsafe so you can't accidentally deck yourself.")

All of which is topped off by Leyline, which immunizes the deck to the main form of combo hate that is naturally good against it for no mana investment and makes mulligans into lottery.

It may win less than Delver, but that's only because it can lose to itself, which Delver can't. That doesn't mean it's fine. The games involving the deck suck, just like the TNN ones do.

[jimmythegreek]

I have way less issues with Delver tbh. It's not good for the color balance of the format, but I don't feel like the game is just plain dumb when I play against Delver decks apart from the T1 Delver T2 natural flip, waste you nutdraw, and even that can be mitigated by simply playing basics. That or when they play TNN.

S&T, on the other hand, just feels dumb every step of the way. The card itself - oh hey, it's the actual threat so you have to stop it instead of being able to stop it partway like you can with engine decks - you don't even have to expose the win con to counterspells afterwards like you have to with broken mana engines. It's a 3 mana sorcery that puts stuff into play from your hand so it evades most traditional card-logistic indicators of brokenness being afoot - cards coming into play from unusual zones, lots of cards being played in one turn, expensive spells being cast, and so forth. Unlike NO, it requires no sacrifice in board position to even try to get one through.

And then the win cons themselves are just about the least situational and, frankly, offensively dumb cards ever printed - Bargain with Lifelink (???), Emrakul, oh hey all my cards are free into Komplete Kombo In A Kan ("Now with a built-in failsafe so you can't accidentally deck yourself
All of which is topped off by Leyline, which immunizes the deck to the main form of combo hate that is naturally good against it for no mana investment and makes mulligans into lottery.

It may win less than Delver, but that's only because it can lose to itself, which Delver can'involving the deck suck, just like the TNN ones do.

Welcome to legacy bra.

[AnziD]

Just putting it out there to any people playing in big events soon - with Surgical Extraction seeing a lot of play right now, perhaps it would be a good idea to switch up the fetchlands in the deck, i.e. to play

4x Tarn
1x Delta
1x Strand
1x Rainforest

It's really subtle, but in an ideal world it would be preferred.

[Unassigned]

I had to sig that one, jimmy. :)

Anyway, it always makes me chuckle when people complain about cheap threats and ALWAYS attack sneak and show. Forget Reanimator, just Sneak. lol...

Legacy is balanced, no matter how badly you try and justify bannings. Gris and Emrakul aren't format defining decks. Delver and Stoneforge? Yeah, those are. People play around their metagame, and that's why we have sideboards lol. If you can't handle a combo deck and complain about it when they beat you, then you aren't taking a serious approach to this format. Combo, control and aggro are all well represented across the board in the standings. People whine about Delver, Stoneforge, Gris, TNN and even Brainstorm. Well, if you can't handle this then go and play Standard.

With that rant over, who all will be in Columbus for the Invi this weekend? I'll be there, but I'm currently debating if I'll be running Sneak or ANT. My Standard decision is between UW Control and RW Burn. I would like to go on record by saying that I am very annoyed that this is a Standard Top 8, lol.

[ORDAL]

Hi guys, can someone explain why the lists now have two jace?

[Shuvel]

Jace can be really good in the mirror match and it makes the control matchups better.

If you don't have your complete combo but you have a Jace it makes them have to answer that first. The amount of card draw you can get off of a Jace can be pretty unreal if your opponent is durdling. The ability to Brainstorm every turn is pretty awesome! Also it can can clear the way for you if something is in the way and preventing you from attacking or going off (For example, bounce Meddling Mage/Revoker, go off, win :D). He is also pitchable to FoW which makes him that much better.

I've been trying out 2 Jaces in the main for a while and I have been enjoying the results. He can be quite the house.

[Zombie]

I had to sig that one, jimmy. :)

Anyway, it always makes me chuckle when people complain about cheap threats and ALWAYS attack sneak and show. Forget Reanimator, just Sneak. lol...

Legacy is balanced, no matter how badly you try and justify bannings. Gris and Emrakul aren't format defining decks. Delver and Stoneforge? Yeah, those are. People play around their metagame, and that's why we have sideboards lol. If you can't handle a combo deck and complain about it when they beat you, then you aren't taking a serious approach to this format. Combo, control and aggro are all well represented across the board in the standings. People whine about Delver, Stoneforge, Gris, TNN and even Brainstorm. Well, if you can't handle this then go and play Standard.

Oh, yay. The "go play Standard" card. Sure didn't see that one coming. Why would I go play a whole uninteresting format when I enjoy Legacy as a whole apart from one deck? Also, "Show and Tell is zero fun to play against unlike the rest of the format" =/= "I can't deal with Show and Tell, concede the matchup and just whine a ton". I prepare for it and fight it because I have to. That doesn't mean I enjoy it, because I don't. Not one bit.

The complaint also never was that it was some meta-dominating monster. It was that games against S&T are not interesting, the dynamics of the namesake broken card are horrible compared to every other broken deck/engine in the format sans TNN (said other broken decks are actually fun to play against because the games are far more interactive and nuanced), and that Leyline makes it even worse. Little else. Hell, most people I ask would like to ban S&T the card, I'd just rather see the dumbest targets go and have the deck need to play really strong but actually contextual cards - Terastodon, Ashen Rider, Progenitus, Elesh Norn, Worldspine Wurm, Sphinx of the Steel Wind and so on, and to have to pay actual mana for its protection spells instead of just having a Decay-proof discard blanker on the field from the get go, no mana needed, no counters allowed.

[cab0747]

Oh, yay. The "go play Standard" card. Sure didn't see that one coming. Why would I go play a whole uninteresting format when I enjoy Legacy as a whole apart from one deck? Also, "Show and Tell is zero fun to play against unlike the rest of the format" =/= "I can't deal with Show and Tell, concede the matchup and just whine a ton". I prepare for it and fight it because I have to. That doesn't mean I enjoy it, because I don't. Not one bit.

The complaint also never was that it was some meta-dominating monster. It was that games against S&T are not interesting, the dynamics of the namesake broken card are horrible compared to every other broken deck/engine in the format sans TNN (said other broken decks are actually fun to play against because the games are far more interactive and nuanced), and that Leyline makes it even worse. Little else. Hell, most people I ask would like to ban S&T the card, I'd just rather see the dumbest targets go and have the deck need to play really strong but actually contextual cards - Terastodon, Ashen Rider, Progenitus, Elesh Norn, Worldspine Wurm, Sphinx of the Steel Wind and so on, and to have to pay actual mana for its protection spells instead of just having a Decay-proof discard blanker on the field from the get go, no mana needed, no counters allowed.

I think you can make the argument that many decks in Legacy are not interesting to play against. There are few ways to interact with Dredge (especially manaless), Burn, Pox, Storm, and probably a few others I am forgetting. However, none of these decks, Sneak and Show included, are format warping or deserving of any kind of ban. There are ways to interact with them and ways to sideboard against them.

[Zombie]

I think you can make the argument that many decks in Legacy are not interesting to play against. There are few ways to interact with Dredge (especially manaless), Burn, Pox, Storm, and probably a few others I am forgetting. However, none of these decks, Sneak and Show included, are format warping or deserving of any kind of ban. There are ways to interact with them and ways to sideboard against them.

To be fair, my annoyance at S&T would be dramatically lessened if Leyline didn't exist. That way I could at least trust my mulligans against you instead of going "hey, three discard yess- or will these be complete blanks from T0?" the other (nonblue) non-discard hate against the deck is just quite narrow because S&T as a card dodges an absurd amount of traditional combo hate. Still would like the fatties to be the more context-dependant ones and not Emrakul and Griselbrand though. The lack of fucks given by those two cards is just dull.

And yeah, nutdraws all across the board are pretty bad. But S&T is still quite unique in how little it exposes or commits in the process of doing broken things. Like, compare to Channel, which requires commitment to green instead of blue. You can throw them out like S&T's to bait counters, but if an opponent lets a Channel resolve, you still have to weigh if you want to actually commit the life to try casting your broken card because they could just counter it or in case of Banefire bolt you to death. S&T you just plop in Griselbrand and draw a new hand with more gas. If they Swords it, so much the better. And Channel, the nonblue card with more failure points, is banned.
Same kind of dynamic with many other cards that do broken things. Storm's rituals mean they still have to expose the tutor, or you can trip them with a well-placed counter and the whole thing falls apart. Just trying Natural Order means you sacrifice some of your board position. Also, Craterhoof needs onboard resources to actually be lethal. A lethal NO on the stack? Have a look at this Golgari Charm. Glimpse/hardcast Hoof require heavy commitment to the board to make happen at all, and both Storm/Elves need heavy nonblue commitment so you can't really sit behind counter backup. If they want to proof themselves against hate, it requires an investment in-game - they have to resolve the anti-hate and find time for it. Leyline has none of that.

Even most other 2-card combos like Painter need to have two permanents on the field at the same time and have to expose both combo pieces through the graveyard or the stack as well before they can just kill you.

[JPA]

To be fair, my annoyance at S&T would be dramatically lessened if Leyline didn't exist. That way I could at least trust my mulligans against you instead of going "hey, three discard yess- or will these be complete blanks from T0?" the other (nonblue) non-discard hate against the deck is just quite narrow because S&T as a card dodges an absurd amount of traditional combo hate. Still would like the fatties to be the more context-dependant ones and not Emrakul and Griselbrand though. The lack of fucks given by those two cards is just dull.

And yeah, nutdraws all across the board are pretty bad. But S&T is still quite unique in how little it exposes or commits in the process of doing broken things. Like, compare to Channel, which requires commitment to green instead of blue. You can throw them out like S&T's to bait counters, but if an opponent lets a Channel resolve, you still have to weigh if you want to actually commit the life to try casting your broken card because they could just counter it or in case of Banefire bolt you to death. S&T you just plop in Griselbrand and draw a new hand with more gas. If they Swords it, so much the better. And Channel, the nonblue card with more failure points, is banned.
Same kind of dynamic with many other cards that do broken things. Storm's rituals mean they still have to expose the tutor, or you can trip them with a well-placed counter and the whole thing falls apart. Just trying Natural Order means you sacrifice some of your board position. Also, Craterhoof needs onboard resources to actually be lethal. A lethal NO on the stack? Have a look at this Golgari Charm. Glimpse/hardcast Hoof require heavy commitment to the board to make happen at all, and both Storm/Elves need heavy nonblue commitment so you can't really sit behind counter backup. If they want to proof themselves against hate, it requires an investment in-game - they have to resolve the anti-hate and find time for it. Leyline has none of that.

Even most other 2-card combos like Painter need to have two permanents on the field at the same time and have to expose both combo pieces through the graveyard or the stack as well before they can just kill you.

To sum this up: The reason that you hate S&S is that it is the best combo deck?

Personally, I disagree with your statement that

other broken decks are actually fun to play against because the games are far more interactive and nuanced)

I hate playing vs Elves for example (unless I beat them ). Even if you make all the right decisions concering removal/discard/counters, they are awesome at topdecking the game-winning NO/GSZ/Craterhoof/Cradle/Ooze/w/e, nullifying all of the awesome "interaction and nuances" that might have happened until then.
I'd rather get Emrakul'd twice in a quick 10-minute-match and move onto the next round without a headache than losing a 50minute-war against Elves where I made all the right decisions and still got topdeck-hoofd. That's just my opinion, and even though I don't share your view, I can totally understand it.