[Deck] 12 Post

[endqwerty]

Is it really that bad? I'm always happy to have it against delver variants as I don't want to get primeval titan dazed or forced. Though it is only prime time. I'm guessing you've got more practice than me though.

[Togores]

I thought a lot of purtting a trop out.
But the problem is that then you only have 8 blue sources for 10 blue cards. And after board you are usualy really blue intensive.
Will test it anyway. May be its enought.

[Mockingbird]

Is it really that bad? I'm always happy to have it against delver variants as I don't want to get primeval titan dazed or forced. Though it is only prime time. I'm guessing you've got more practice than me though.

It's not that it's bad, it's more that it's redundant for something we have more important things to do, especially regarding the fact it only produces colored mana for Primeval Titan. And generally, it's less strenuous to Show and Tell him into play than search up Cavern. It's an awkward fit in practice.

Cavern of Souls is better in MUD-Post where there are more creatures to resolve and none of the color alignment to cause worry. Plus as strange as it sounds, forcing through a Sundering Titan in MUD-Post is more relevant than forcing through a Primeval Titan in 12-Post.

[sherko7]

Hi all!

A few months ago I sold off my entire Legacy collection due to iRL. I am now planning to get back into the game and this is one of the few decks that caught my eye. My questions are:

1) How does the deck fare against a wide open meta?
2) Is 12 post a reliable investment? Meaning are their any indications of the deck becoming obsolete in the foreseeable future? I am looking for a long term investment here.
3) If you were to build the deck from scratch, how would you go about considering card availability? As I really wanna be playing soon!
4) Would the deck work without candles? What's the minimum number of candles?

Thanks.

[Firepaw3]

Hi all!

A few months ago I sold off my entire Legacy collection due to iRL. I am now planning to get back into the game and this is one of the few decks that caught my eye. My questions are:

1) How does the deck fare against a wide open meta?
2) Is 12 post a reliable investment? Meaning are their any indications of the deck becoming obsolete in the foreseeable future? I am looking for a long term investment here.
3) If you were to build the deck from scratch, how would you go about considering card availability? As I really wanna be playing soon!
4) Would the deck work without candles? What's the minimum number of candles?

Thanks.

because I have little experience with this deck dont take this to heart, but imo
1) as of right now I would say the deck is good in this miracle and fair heavy meta, carsten kotter recently wrote an article about it:http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ys-Legacy.html but from my experience the deck can stumble against combo
2) a majority of the expensive cards in the deck ie: fetches duals forces(sometimes) are all used in various other decks with candle and non-emrakul being the exception
3) if building from scratch or on a budget(not sure if you cant find cards or dont have the money) I would look into the mono green versions while (imo) slightly weaker cheaper to build not needing duals
4) the amount of candles varies from lists i see, I personally play one as they do ramp you greatly but since your whole deck is ramp trimming it isnt a huge deal, if you want to build the strongest version i would just copy whatever Rock Lee is playing, imo he knows best
deck is super fun if you do pick it up im sure you'll enjoy it, but its always better to proxy and playtest before making a huge investment :)

[sherko7]

because I have little experience with this deck dont take this to heart, but imo
1) as of right now I would say the deck is good in this miracle and fair heavy meta, carsten kotter recently wrote an article about it:http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ys-Legacy.html but from my experience the deck can stumble against combo
2) a majority of the expensive cards in the deck ie: fetches duals forces(sometimes) are all used in various other decks with candle and non-emrakul being the exception
3) if building from scratch or on a budget(not sure if you cant find cards or dont have the money) I would look into the mono green versions while (imo) slightly weaker cheaper to build not needing duals
4) the amount of candles varies from lists i see, I personally play one as they do ramp you greatly but since your whole deck is ramp trimming it isnt a huge deal, if you want to build the strongest version i would just copy whatever Rock Lee is playing, imo he knows best
deck is super fun if you do pick it up im sure you'll enjoy it, but its always better to proxy and playtest before making a huge investment :)

Thanks for this!

It was actually Carsten's article that led me here! I was initially planning to invest into ANT as I wanted to play a Brainstorm deck without FoW (Much like real life, love-hate relationships aren't healthy, lol). My issue with ANT is since I only get to play at around once a month (usually big tournies only) I don't think I can muster the dedication required to master the deck. Plus, "slamming a hard casted Emrakul" > "counting to 10" in terms of the fun factor.

I wouldn't say money is an issue, but I'd rather not invest too much into this. I wouldn't have any problems with the duals, its the the candles I'm having problems about. Not sure how I'd feel about investing hundreds of dollars on an extremely narrow card. Although locally, candles here sell quite cheap (about 8000 PHP; 43 PHP = 1 USD).

I'm going to start testing the Rock Lee list on Cockatrice. That's my only venue for testing these days as work pretty much eats up my week.

[Mockingbird]

New Tezzeret the Seeker win worth reporting from my online testing: he provided a workaround for Chalice of the Void set to 1 counter.

[winglerw28]

I feel as though Tezzeret the Seeker is fairly clunky if used simply as a Trinket Mage, with the double blue casting cost being a large source of my apprehension (in addition to his location on the curve). On the other hand, he is much better than Trinket Mage when you are looking for Ensnaring Bridges, which could be very relevant.

Are there any artifacts that were previously unexplored in the deck that get better if we are playing Tezzeret? Maybe a 1-of Crucible of Worlds we can tutor for against Wasteland decks?

[Firepaw3]

I feel as though Tezzeret the Seeker is fairly clunky if used simply as a Trinket Mage, with the double blue casting cost being a large source of my apprehension (in addition to his location on the curve). On the other hand, he is much better than Trinket Mage when you are looking for Ensnaring Bridges, which could be very relevant.

Are there any artifacts that were previously unexplored in the deck that get better if we are playing Tezzeret? Maybe a 1-of Crucible of Worlds we can tutor for against Wasteland decks?

if we are playing a 5 drop to recast lands i feel like we are already in an ok position, against waste trinket would just be better to get a needle
I can think of any artifacts that would warrant playing tezz

[winglerw28]

if we are playing a 5 drop to recast lands i feel like we are already in an ok position, against waste trinket would just be better to get a needle
I can think of any artifacts that would warrant playing tezz

It lets you get all your 1-drop artifacts through Chalice of the Void, and it can tutor for Phyrexian Revoker and Ensnaring Bridge post-board. I think that gives it enough merit to be tested some, even if it ends up not being good enough.

After talking about it with Zotmaster IRL, I'm convinced that it falls into the category of probably too cute, but that doesn't mean I'm necessarily right.

[sauce]

I think if you're not playing Show & Tell, then the Cavern is a lot more important. With Cavern in the deck, it become a lot easier to craft a game state where you win by playing it as your 6th or 5th (cloudpost + glimmerpost involved) land and slam Titan into their FoW/Daze.
With Show & Tell in the deck you have the option of jamming S&T, getting it countered and then hoping they dont have a way to counter Titan.
I prefer to win the game w/ Cavern though instead of hoping.

[Darkenslight]

I think if you're not playing Show & Tell, then the Cavern is a lot more important. With Cavern in the deck, it become a lot easier to craft a game state where you win by playing it as your 6th or 5th (cloudpost + glimmerpost involved) land and slam Titan into their FoW/Daze.
With Show & Tell in the deck you have the option of jamming S&T, getting it countered and then hoping they dont have a way to counter Titan.
I prefer to win the game w/ Cavern though instead of hoping.

Boseiju, who Shelters All is a thing that might be playable if you're heavy on S&T.

[Zotmaster]

Boseiju, who Shelters All is a thing that might be playable if you're heavy on S&T.

I've tried it and I'm not really a fan. Even when I was running miracle spells like Devastation Tide and Temporal Mastery, Boseiju just doesn't do enough, especially when you consider you can't use it the turn you play it without help from a Candelabra. Boseiju, Who Shelters Show and Tell is even worse and not good enough to warrant a slot in the deck, especially when you consider that Show and Tell is by no means your Plan A.

I think if you're not playing Show & Tell, then the Cavern is a lot more important. With Cavern in the deck, it become a lot easier to craft a game state where you win by playing it as your 6th or 5th (cloudpost + glimmerpost involved) land and slam Titan into their FoW/Daze.
With Show & Tell in the deck you have the option of jamming S&T, getting it countered and then hoping they dont have a way to counter Titan.
I prefer to win the game w/ Cavern though instead of hoping.

I agree with Cavern being more important if you're not playing Show and Tell...it's also a lot easier to find a slot for it if that is the case. My biggest gripe with Cavern has always been the fact that it's not a reliable source of colored mana, and that's a heavy price to pay for making your Titan uncounterable. I like being able to convert my colored source into another Locus or Chasm if necessary. Also don't underestimate the power of jamming a Show and Tell even if your only plan is, in fact, to get it countered. I've said that Show and Tell is the easiest bluff in all of Magic: if your opponent has countermagic and doesn't have a sideboard answer, you will draw out a counter when you cast it. Your opponent doesn't have to know that you have nothing meaningful to Show in play, and I've used SnT in this way to clear out countermagic in order to resolve something that was more important at the time more than once.

[sauce]

I been testing a SB Master of the Wild Hunt, Garruk Relentless and a 3rd Oracle (2 main already) in the SB for the BUG matchup.
Garruk has been underwhelming but in some situations exceptional. IE, kill their 1 guy, next turn make a wolf, turn after sac wolf to get Titan.
Master has been great and Oracle is the nutter butters. I run 1 GSZ and 0 S&T right now to see how it plays w/ 2 Oracles + 1 GSZ in place of 3 S&T.
There are matchups where you want S&T a lot more like mono red for example but I have a hard time vs BUG so I went to 2 Oracles + 1 GSZ instead.
I wanted my top decks to be more impactful. Nothing sucks more than top decking S&T when your hand has been shredded.

[TimHarding]

I been testing a SB Master of the Wild Hunt, Garruk Relentless and a 3rd Oracle (2 main already) in the SB for the BUG matchup.
Garruk has been underwhelming but in some situations exceptional. IE, kill their 1 guy, next turn make a wolf, turn after sac wolf to get Titan.
Master has been great and Oracle is the nutter butters. I run 1 GSZ and 0 S&T right now to see how it plays w/ 2 Oracles + 1 GSZ in place of 3 S&T.
There are matchups where you want S&T a lot more like mono red for example but I have a hard time vs BUG so I went to 2 Oracles + 1 GSZ instead.
I wanted my top decks to be more impactful. Nothing sucks more than top decking S&T when your hand has been shredded.

Oracle and GSZ are definitely king against BUG. Also if you're bold and don't fear blood moon, Khalni Garden is big game too. But I think a lot of peoples problems come from undervaluing top and brainstorm. Top will carry you through the discard. Mull to them!

[Mockingbird]

I feel as though Tezzeret the Seeker is fairly clunky if used simply as a Trinket Mage, with the double blue casting cost being a large source of my apprehension (in addition to his location on the curve). On the other hand, he is much better than Trinket Mage when you are looking for Ensnaring Bridges, which could be very relevant.

Are there any artifacts that were previously unexplored in the deck that get better if we are playing Tezzeret? Maybe a 1-of Crucible of Worlds we can tutor for against Wasteland decks?

In my testing so far, Tezzeret the Seeker's primary function is a cross between Fog that gets the artifact I need most (because anyone that lets him live will be sorely mistaken) and Primeval Titan number 5 (meaning his presence by resolving onto the field warps the direction of the game). The is not a problem in my experience because the deck has a past regularly casting Venser, Shaper Savant, and one of my favorite things about this deck is the ease I've had hardcasting Force of Will when I play it.

The reason I started testing Tezzeret is because he puts relevant artifacts straight onto the field. My favorite is Candelabra of Tawnos because of the interactions that come with plussing Tezzeret off that. But here is a list of other historically relevant artifacts that Locus decks play that Tezzeret can fetch:

Cursed Totem
Ensnaring Bridge
Expedition Map
Oblivion Stone
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Sensei's Divining Top

About where Tezzeret falls on the curve though... there's a reason I'm only testing one mainboard. The deck can function without him, but he provides a new form of interaction that so far has expedited victory when resolving him, except once when he didn't help when I got blindsided by Armageddon. That wasn't his fault though.

[winglerw28]

So I did a bunch of testing tonight against a mini-gauntlet of decks and was wondering how I should be playing against Elves. From our testing it seemed like you really need an early Show and Tell against them, but I am not sure if I'm playing everything how I should in the MU. Since I am a relatively new player, I'm hoping you guys can help me out.

[HammafistRoob]

So I did a bunch of testing tonight against a mini-gauntlet of decks and was wondering how I should be playing against Elves. From our testing it seemed like you really need an early Show and Tell against them, but I am not sure if I'm playing everything how I should in the MU. Since I am a relatively new player, I'm hoping you guys can help me out.

It really depends on your list. Pithing Needle on Deathrite + Glacial Chasm is usually game over.

[balkothe]

I recently just completed this deck as it is very intriguing. I have read all the pages in the forum 2 times now but am curious if anyone has any links to videos of the deck in motion? Specifically any that have tournament play involved so i can see the reactions of cards drawn and such? Any help in advance would be wonderful.

-Thanks again for the awesome deck!

[Mockingbird]

So I did a bunch of testing tonight against a mini-gauntlet of decks and was wondering how I should be playing against Elves. From our testing it seemed like you really need an early Show and Tell against them, but I am not sure if I'm playing everything how I should in the MU. Since I am a relatively new player, I'm hoping you guys can help me out.

Moment's Peace is also a great card against them. Phyrexian Revoker slows them down because your can hit any of their mana elves. Mindbreak Trap can ruin a plan of theirs. Generally though, if they won't scoop, you need either an Oblivion Stone/All is Dust if you play sweeps (although they aren't necessary) or the Emrakul, the Aeons Torn+Karakas combo to finish them off because they generate a lot of permanents that they can feed into the annihilator trigger and still be in the game.