All B/R update speculation.

[Darkenslight]

IMO there are many possibilities. Splashing green for Crop Rotation seems like something that - at minimum - deserves some consideration.

That would make sense - but Caleb's build there is four-color with only EtW as a win-con. EtW is possibly an alternate wincon, but IMO, you need a one-turn wincon, which both BSZ and Banefire are, and both are better than Tendrils in an Academy deck.

[Lemnear]

That would make sense - but Caleb's build there is four-color with only EtW as a win-con. EtW is possibly an alternate wincon, but IMO, you need a one-turn wincon, which both BSZ and Banefire are, and both are better than Tendrils in an Academy deck.

The problem is that he build a deck around academy which loses to taxing counters due to spirals cost and folds to wasteland as well. The card should be used to boost a gameplan not to be part of a 3 card combo like in calebs decklist. Academy powered Affinity or Chromatic Storm comes to mind...

[Teluin]

I'd love to see the fetch lands banned.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I'd love to see the fetch lands banned.

I'm not certain how that would pan out for Legacy.

On one hand, there would be a lot smaller of a disparity in the flexibility/consistency of manabases with duals and without them. It's the Fetchlands that really make the duals that good. Running Painlands/Fastlands/Checklands would feel a lot less awful in a meta where Fetch/Dual manabases don't exist.

On the other hand, the most optimal lists would likely demand even more duals than the number that are currently used, in order to have the mana necessary at any given time in a game. This would likely mean duals would become even more expensive, as one or two duals of any color combination won't suffice.

So there would be an interesting dynamic in which an adequate manabase is far more accessible, but the optimal manabase becomes even more out of reach for average players. And then there are other considerations as well, such as the effects of losing the most ubiquitous shuffle effects in the format (Brainstorm gets a hard nerf, as do cards like Mirri's Guile).

It's an interesting thought, no doubt, but likely not a popular one, and one I'm relatively certain Wizards will pay no heed to (reprinting the Onslaught fetches is like printing money directly to their bank account, and could probably carry a lousy set/block, as the Shocklands sort of did with RtR).


Banning the fetches in Modern, however, would be very interesting. There's no one land cycle, like ABUR duals, that stands head and shoulders above the rest. Shocks, Checks, Fastlands, Lorwyn Tribals, Trilands, and Painlands could all see a lot of use, making for more interesting deckbuilding when deciding on a manabase and "spreading the cost" of a Modern manabase out, rather than concentrating most of it into Fetches and Shocks.

[YamiJoey]

Wasteland existing changes the whole dianamic of what you have just said. Also, it makes most of the current Delver decks unplayable. The mana is way too strict, and even forgetting that you lose DRS from BUG Delver, it is the most colour intensive deck I have ever played. T1 Blue, into BB, into 1G is... Unfeasable in a fetchless format. Christ, the deck only worked half of the time because DRS was a rainbow Land.

[Rizso]

I'm not certain how that would pan out for Legacy.

On one hand, there would be a lot smaller of a disparity in the flexibility/consistency of manabases with duals and without them. It's the Fetchlands that really make the duals that good. Running Painlands/Fastlands/Checklands would feel a lot less awful in a meta where Fetch/Dual manabases don't exist.

On the other hand, the most optimal lists would likely demand even more duals than the number that are currently used, in order to have the mana necessary at any given time in a game. This would likely mean duals would become even more expensive, as one or two duals of any color combination won't suffice.

So there would be an interesting dynamic in which an adequate manabase is far more accessible, but the optimal manabase becomes even more out of reach for average players. And then there are other considerations as well, such as the effects of losing the most ubiquitous shuffle effects in the format (Brainstorm gets a hard nerf, as do cards like Mirri's Guile).

It's an interesting thought, no doubt, but likely not a popular one, and one I'm relatively certain Wizards will pay no heed to (reprinting the Onslaught fetches is like printing money directly to their bank account, and could probably carry a lousy set/block, as the Shocklands sort of did with RtR).


Banning the fetches in Modern, however, would be very interesting. There's no one land cycle, like ABUR duals, that stands head and shoulders above the rest. Shocks, Checks, Fastlands, Lorwyn Tribals, Trilands, and Painlands could all see a lot of use, making for more interesting deckbuilding when deciding on a manabase and "spreading the cost" of a Modern manabase out, rather than concentrating most of it into Fetches and Shocks.

Modern decks do contain alot more diffrent lands then fetch and shocks. While most run 8-12 fetch it mostly run 3-5 shocks. Combination of Filter, Fastlands, wwkmanlands and checklands does see alot of play in modern.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Even in modern that idea is dumb, what would that ultimately accomplish, make several decks unplayable, mana overall worse and anger players with a banning that is largely unnecessary

[PirateKing]

Even in modern that idea is dumb, what would that ultimately accomplish, make several decks unplayable, mana overall worse and anger players with a banning that is largely unnecessary

Nah let them use Mirage fetches, they'll be fiiiiine

[ukyo_rulz]

I'd love to see the fetch lands banned.

I like fetches but I always support any idea that results in less shuffling so I hope you get your wish.

[HSCK]

I'd love to see the fetch lands banned.

So you'd like to see Legacy burn its player base, that's nice to know.

[btm10]

Thawing Glaciers should be the only legal fetchland.

[Dice_Box]

Unless we are seeing a reprint of Duals there is no way in hell I would want to see fetches banned. Hell even with a reprint I would not want fetches gone. Lets look at banning issues that pop up and not making the format a ghost town.

[Darkenslight]

Unless we are seeing a reprint of Duals there is no way in hell I would want to see fetches banned. Hell even with a reprint I would not want fetches gone. Lets look at banning issues that pop up and not making the format a ghost town.

I think that, at the moment, the only thing that comes close to being banworthy is Brainstorm, and that's a hot-button to push, given its reprinting in Conspiracy. Outside of the bans, I think that an unban of Vise is probably correct at the moment.

[Bryant Cook]

They really need to unban Mind's Desire already as it's worse than Ad Nauseam in most storm decks and is on par with Time Spiral in tide decks. It wouldn't be degenerate, it would just be another option.

[nevilshute]

They really need to unban Mind's Desire already as it's worse than Ad Nauseam in most storm decks and is on par with Time Spiral in tide decks. It wouldn't be degenerate, it would just be another option.

I would love that. Practical question about Desire though, as I've never played with it:

The 'shuffle each time' clause... I've heard that people in vintage short cut this. But in a format with four Brainstorms legal, wouldn't it mean a whole lot of a shuffling? And let's say you go off with storm five. You shuffle and flip the first card and it's brainstorm. You now have the option of casting it before the next copy of MD resolves, but if you do, you surely have to shuffle prior to resolving MD # 2. Then what? Does that set a precedent for shuffling prior to each of the remaining copies?

Also, Bryant, what do you think the chances are of this getting unbanned? (Yes, I'm asking you to wildly speculate)

[Bryant Cook]

I would love that. Practical question about Desire though, as I've never played with it:

The 'shuffle each time' clause... I've heard that people in vintage short cut this. But in a format with four Brainstorms legal, wouldn't it mean a whole lot of a shuffling? And let's say you go off with storm five. You shuffle and flip the first card and it's brainstorm. You now have the option of casting it before the next copy of MD resolves, but if you do, you surely have to shuffle prior to resolving MD # 2. Then what? Does that set a precedent for shuffling prior to each of the remaining copies?

Also, Bryant, what do you think the chances are of this getting unbanned? (Yes, I'm asking you to wildly speculate)

You can shortcut the shuffles for example: Storm seven, Desire is on the stack and we have three available mana with 2 cards in hand.

Desire storm triggers, six copies will resolve before the original.

1.) Dark Ritual (Short cut)
2.) Lotus Petal (Short cut)
3.) Brainstorm, you can now opt to cast this spell before resolving the fourth storm trigger and place the two cards from your hand on top. (Shuffle).
4.) Ad Nauseam (You could also cast this in response to the next trigger)
5.) Burning Wish (Short cut)
6.) Gemstone Mine (Short cut)
7.) Chrome Mox (Short cut)

As for it's unbanning? I certainly hope it happens. I've already speculated and picked up a single Japanese foil and plan on getting another. It's not nearly as degenerate as the stigma around it makes it appear. It could've also have done.

1.) Dark Ritual
2.) Lotus Petal
3.) Scalding Tarn
4.) Underground Sea
5.) Cabal Ritual
6.) Rite of Flame
7.) Chrome Mox

Awkward.

[nevilshute]

Those have been my feelings too... Getting to storm 6+ with floating and without getting your tutor countered is still the same hoop you have to jump through as it is now with ad nauseam or past flames. It could even be argued that it's harder due to being 6cmc instead of 5 or 4.

[rufus]

..
The 'shuffle each time' clause... I've heard that people in vintage short cut this. But in a format with four Brainstorms legal, wouldn't it mean a whole lot of a shuffling? ...

Four shuffles doesn't seem so bad to me. I think you'd need to have something like Mind Lash + Future Sight to really make that shuffling into an issue.

[HSCK]

What did everyone think of Caleb's opinions on the banned cards he tested? Is Oath being unbanned just a dream?

[Higgs]

I agree with him on Survival. It's incredibly sweet to play with and I think just too strong. On Oath of Druids I think he didn't evaluate the card fully by just trying it in a control shell. I'd be curious to see how good it would be in a Griselbrand storm shell. Would it be more resilient than TinFins? Would it have a consistent Turn 3 kill? Also Dragon Breath Oath.. Wonder if it would be better than S&S.