URBG PyroLoam

[Lightless]

Hey Guys,

I need some help with a brew i came up with. The more the merrier works with brewing up new stuff as well I think.

The base of the list is a derivate fromthe Korey McDuffie Pyro Loam list:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...ith_korey.html

So lets just jump into my list now:

Deck


//Creatures

2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Deathrite Shaman

//Planeswalker

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Dack Fayden

//Spells

1 Fire // Ice
3 Force of Will
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Intuition
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam

//Lands

1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
2 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn


I reduced the black cards by quite a bit so i only use black mana for Cabal Therapy, activation of Deathrite Shaman and potential Sideboard options.

First of all let me explain som of the card choices I made.


Cardchoices

Young Pyromancer: With ten Cantrips and the recursive engine of Punishing Fire and Life from the Loam there should be no shortage of cards to trigger this little board-flooding powerhouse. On the other side he makes the Flashback of Cabal Therapy more easily accessable.

Deathrite Shaman: I dont think i got to explain why he is a nice Creature. Mana ramp, damage on a stick and prolonging the game by gaining life are all more then enough to put him in here.

Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Pretty absurd with Young Pyromancer and a good way to gain card advantage. Pyro + Edric: Tokes -> more card -> more Tokens. Rinse and repeat.

Dack Fayden: Actualy this was the card that made me pick up this deck again after all. I think he needs a graveyard based strategie to make use of his +1 ability and use up his full potential. Loam - Punising Fire - Cabal Therapie... I think I mke good use of him.

Ponder Brainstorm Gitaxian Probe: Cantrips... what would be a blue legacy deck without them.

Intuition: Searching for the cards u need with many recursive parts in the deck nothing is realy gone forever. Thespian's Stage + Dark Depths + Life fromthe Loam as a potential combo-win..

Cabal Therapy: Handdisruption of choice, searchable with Intuition and free flashback with Pyromancer.


Okay since I didn't yet play this deck enough to make statements about its bad matchups, I cannot tell you yet what the main problems are,
even if I have some Ideas about that. (aggro-tempo-based decks might be a problem e.g.: RUG-Delver)
But like I said, the more people are racking their brains about somthing the more usefull ideas might show up, so don't hold back.
Give me your opinion, ideas and suggestions on how to mke this better. I'm also open to sideboard ideas. I allready made up my mind about some of the slots in the 15 but I'm not yet sure.

Thanks for your help.

Kind Regards

Me ;)

[Pdingo]

i will posting my list later;) but you know her:P

and i think burg Pyroloam:P or Punishing Burg seems nicer:P
The evolution of bUrg Tempo into a controll deck with a combo finish made in Switzerland ;))


greets

[Pdingo]

Here is my List

I'm pretty sure this Deck is a new Thing:)
enjoy it.


4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Dack Fayden
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
1 Life from the Loam
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Wasteland
3 Intuition
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Ponder


SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Force of Will

Lands:

I prefer 9 Fetchies and 3 Volcanic Islands because of Punishing Fire. I always want 3 Volcanic islands in the Lategame.

Jace:

I like the Jace to much. I prefer 2 Jace's and i 1 Jace in the SB to side in him and crap them with Intuition. Very good against Controll.


Sideboard:

I really like this Board.

I'm not sure about Notion Thief, but they are very good against a lot blue decks like Shardless BUG or Miracle. Dack Fayden and Notion Thief are very nice together.

I prefer Krosan Grip over Grudge always. Takes Batterskull or a Sensei's Diving top.

Match ups:

testing>>>>..

[theMonster]

Hey, y'all, first post here. I saw this list cross-posted on MTGsalvation. I'm very interested in this archetype.

Could the tempo matchups be mitigated with an Engineered Explosives/Academy Ruins package? Intuition-ing for them + Life from the Loam seems powerful. Yet I see the pitfalls with EE at 0 in that it kills Young Pyromancer tokens. And do you find Deathrite Shaman to be adequate acceleration and utility? Mox Diamond, a Lands staple, is notably absent from these lists, so could you guys could speak to the decision to not run it?

Thanks.

[Pdingo]

Hei Monster

Nice that you join the Threath. :)

@ Academy Ruins/EE package. I think it's not needed here. This is a Creature Based deck. Intuition into academy and EE is nice in a Landshell Deck. But it's very slow in PyroLoam. (Land.dec slow them already down at the beginning of the game, with a fast Exploration and Diamond into loam and Maze+ Wasteland )
We try to win with Card Advange (Pyromancer and Edric) and use Controll Elements like Cabal Therapy+ Probe or Intuiton into Punishing Fire and Grove. Grove make a green or red mana. This is very important.
Academy Ruins is very bad without EE, just a colourless Mana. Grove gives us more that we Need to Play Cards out.

Player with Experience against Tempo knows. EE is ok against Tempo but not very good. ( Flipped Delver cc 0, Nimble cc1, Tarmo CC 2 etc.) Tempo is a fast Deck with a Clock. That mean in this Match up, Intuition into EE and Ruins is to slow.
That's just the Wrong Treath to fight them. And the Colourless mana of the Ruins isn't better here. We need Colour Mana.

The Way to Fight them against Tempo:

Important is you Need a lot Experience in this Match up. To know how to play around Stifle and daze is very important.
First you should play your fetchlands out and play your Creatures and make Tokens or Mana with Shaman. Just slow them down with your creatures(Tokens can block nimble and Goyfs etc.) and take the delver/stoneforge Mystics with Punishing Fire. And play FoW and Wasteland well timed. (Need Experience)
Then play Intuition into loam, Stage and Dark Dephts and try to win instead of slow them down with EE. At this Point, maybe you think ,, Well i can search EE too and slow them more down.'' That's just wrong, you Need to win fast, whenever you can do it. Just taking Time in a Match up like this is just wrong.

Sometimes you will lose Game 1. But when you do it like this you will win. The Deck have not much removal Preboard. But the Important Core is to play Removals like Abrupt Decay in the Sideboard.

Main Removal( Decay or a EE Package) is not needed. I mean you have a Sideboard for that.

@ Mox Diamond and CO.

Mox Diamond is not needed here. It's a very bad Topdeck and take Slots(Same for EE and academy Ruins) that we Need. Cantrips like Ponder and Brainstorm are very nice here and better. Same for the Gitaxian Probes.

Mox Diamond is very nice in Lands.dec or in a Junk.dec Shell. If you like a Heavy Controll Shell more you should play Lands.

BUT WHY IS THIS DECK BETTER THAN LANDS???

- It's more constant than Lands.
- It's doesnt lose to GY Hate.
- We have other Cards to controll the Game (Probe + Cabal Therapy and FoW).
- More and Flexible Win Options. We attack the Oppenent with Creatures, PWs, Discard, Counter and a Combo. ;)

This Deck play four...no (5) real Win Options!!!

1. Pyromancer+ shaman + Edric. (Basic Rout)
2. Loam into Stage and Dephts(Plan B)
3. Jace, TMS
4. Punishing Fire
(5. Dack Fayden ultimate + Punishing Fire)

So i hope helped you a Little bit :)

Still sure it's a very nice Deck with a lot Potential.

Greets from Switzerland

Pdingo








.

[theMonster]

Thanks for the quick, thorough response, Pdingo. All those points make sense.

Further questions I have:

- Piggybacking on your "Ruins is bad without EE" argument, can the same be said for Edric, Spymaster of Trest without Young Pyromancer? Do you find yourself consistently drawing enough cards to make the investment worthwhile? I'm assuming it's worked out well so far - would like to hear how you settled on two copies.
- Are there any flex spots? Could one Ponder be, say, a Spell Pierce, or is the list extremely tight?
- How have you liked Notion Thief? Would you play something like Vendilion Clique in this deck's sideboard, as it is a clock in addition to disruption?
- What do you wish the deck did more efficiently so far?

Look forward to sleeving this list up eventually - need to acquire a few of the lands first. I'm currently a Tezzerator player, hence my fixation with Engineered Explosives. The reason I'm drawn to your list is because I'm looking for something that's not pure control.

[Pdingo]

@ edric

Edric is a creature, EE can just slow down a game.
Edric is a 2/2 creature. Your oppenent have to handle it.
2 is a good choice because it's legendary.
You attack the oppenent with more ways. Pyromancer + and edric.
To the same time with dephts + Stage or a planeswalker.
You need card advange in this deck. This is the way to win.
And edric is a very underrated creatures right now. He's very nice.

@ flexible slots

yes i think you can cut a jace sometimes or a ponder. But not for a counter.
1 off pierce doesnt make sence at all.

But im very happy with my List.

@notion Thief

he's just a test slot. he's not bad but you can either play clique, grim and i was thinking about a Dark Confidant.

We have to test it.

Greets Pdingo

[theMonster]

Right on. I'm gonna try a Vendilion Clique in place of one of the Ponders to provide more bodies for Edric, Spymaster of Trest. Plus, I can always target myself if I need to dig for a card. It makes Cabal Therapy slightly better, too, as it's another way to see and interact with the opponent's hand. I guess the downsides are curve considerations and removing a sorcery (read: food for Young Pyromancer).

Let me know how your testing goes. This deck looks real sweet.

[Pdingo]

ok nice men i let you know later;)

clique seems nice too;)
i will play some in the sideboard.

[theMonster]

How's your testing going? Some small things I've been thinking about:

- Instead of Red Elemental Blast, we should be playing Pyroblast, as the "if" clause could be relevant if there are no blue targets available; we could cast Pyroblast on a non-blue permanent in order to generate a Young Pyromancer token or steal a non-blue permanent after a Dack Fayden ultimate.
- With four Gitaxian Probes in the list, should we consider adding one (or even two) more impact cards? Recently I've seen quad G-Probe lists running 61 or 62 cards to some success, notably one BUG Delver deck that top 4-ed an SCG Open this month. He wrote a convincing defense of his successful 77 here. One or two extra cards could allow us to run any number of things, like a fourth Force of Will, a Vendilion Clique, maybe even 2-3 Dazes (if we cut a card), or whatever else you feel the maindeck could use. I honestly don't know if it's correct - would like to hear your thoughts.

[Pdingo]

Hei

yes pyroblast seems better here;)

clique is nice here, i cut the notion thiefs for her.

@62 cards

No we dont want 62 cards in a deck.
i play 4 probes and that's nice maybe you can cut 1 at least fot a clique or a FoW.
I think 3 FoW are ok because of the blue count.
62 cards us just bad.. well 2 cards more is less consistant than 60 cards.
dont know the idea of the delver list player but it seems just bad...and in a tempo deck with delver that needs constant draws.
not that smart...and 1 top 4 is nothing.
Play always 60 cards trust me.

@Daze
No we arent a tempo deck;)
sometimes we play grove first.Daze is just good in a temposhell. And its a bad topdeck;)

greets

[theMonster]

Hey there, any updates? We have a couple Dack threads going right now. People are definitely interested in the archetype.

I've been thinking about this list a lot and had some questions:

- Is the Dark Depths combo a little slow in this list? If we don't have any of the pieces already, we have to Intuition for Depths/Thespian's Stage/Life from the Loam, then Loam back both lands, take two turns playing them, activate Stage and wait till the next attack step to swing. Could we pack a Crop Rotation or two to get the combo out faster? Maybe in the sideboard to combat the speed of opposing combo decks? That could also help us find Grove of the Burnwillows and blows out opposing Wastelands. The metagame seems like it's getting pretty fast pretty quickly, so having a spell that fuels Young Pyromancer that also expedites the combo (or the Punishing Fire lock) might be decent. Maybe we even play sideboard bullet lands like Karakas if we go that route. I dunno, though, haven't tested the deck. Just an idea.
- Notion Thief looks fun with Dack Fayden's +1, targeting the opponent. Are you bringing it in a lot, and have you "lived the dream" with it? And how good has Dack been overall? I guess he generates value by discarding Loams, Fires and Therapies. Do you like two copies?

Thanks.

[Pdingo]

Hei Monster

No updates since then, just testing the SB Slots..Well i take anyway a Summerbreak. So No time for Magic:P

Well i don't see any good Dack Deck right now, just a UR/b Imperial Painter List. Well he's not THAT Planeswalker for every Deck like Jace or Lili. He's more a Engine.
Maybe Cötters List with Reanimate and Welder could be a Thing. But i think this list is still the best way to use different Tools and Dack. It's have somany ways to win.

Carsten should take a look at this ;)

@Crop Rotation
I think it's the wrong Card in this Deck. The Card does nothing. If you want to Play Crop, you should Play Lands or Farmville. Because it's Loam based.
This deck isn't loam based, it's just the SECOND Engine to Win with dephts. We don't Need more Colours in this 4C Shell. And we Need the SB Slots.

@Notion Thief

He is very good against ,,Hard'' Controll like Miracles and BUG Controll/Shardless. But he gets handled so easy.. And the Combo is so rarely and it doesnt win:(
I Take the Thief Out and Play now 2 Vendillion Cliques in the SB. I like them a lot more. They are a good clock and do very well against Combo and Controll.

Thanks and greets Pdingo

[theMonster]

With two Edric, Spymaster of Trest in the list, do you feel that we have a reliable enough creature attack to generate the most consistent value from him? The four-color Delver decks that played an Edric had more bodies for combat, and our offense is reliant on Young Pyromancer resolving, making tokens and swinging profitably. Would you consider a Vendilion Clique or even a Tombstalker in the maindeck to increase Edric's efficacy? The latter is probably too tough to cast because of the , but Clique seems to fit the deck's plan so well that I think a maindeck copy would be excellent.

[Pdingo]

yes a clique main seems nice maybe you can test her;)

[Pdingo]

Wins : Loses
Uwr Miracle 2
Rug Delver 1 1
POX 2
Shardless BUG 1 1
ANT 1
Maverick 2 1
Turbo Eldrazi 2


(Now 11:3 seems very nice)
The other Games i can't remember but i do write more down in the next few Weeks.

@The Monster and LIghtless

How's the testing going?

greets

[theMonster]

Thanks for the updates, Pdingo.

Do you find that this deck REALLY needs T1 Deathrite Shaman or Ponder to have the types of starts it wants? Yes, T1 Gitaxian Probe into Cabal Therapy sometimes happens - and it's been solid - but not being able to immediately flash it back diminishes the impact of the card. I've generally waited to cast Young Pyromancer till I could keep priority and play a spell. Perhaps this is a play error or too conservative of a line. Also, the Dark Depths plan feels rather slow and able to be played around, but Intuition has been very good for me, as casting it for value (Punishing Fire lock, Therapies, etc.) has frequently been a better line for me than making Marit Lage. Maybe this is a metagame issue, I dunno.

I'm running only one Dack Fayden because I only own one and replaced it with a Vendilion Clique main. So far, I've liked Clique a lot. Dack often just mills me or bins lands. It's been really situational for me.

How 'bout y'all?

[Pdingo]

Of course T1 Shaman is the best Play you can do. Or Ponder seems ok.
Sometimes i Play fetch and end the turn and play t2 Pyromancer and then i do probe him. I never play Probe on the first turn without therapy, when i'm on the Play. I think a t1 shaman or Ponder is not needed at all.
Alot i Play Fetch, fetch and then a land again. Then on the oppnenents eot i Play a Intuition (or a Clique)

Yes Marit Lage is a Little bit slow but it is against a lot Decks very nice. But it's still just the Second Win Option and i win the most Games with it.
And with Intuition we can do many things. Sometimes yes i search 3 Therapys or Punishing Lock.

Cut a Dack Fayden for a Clique is ok. I'm still playing 2 Cliques in the SB and i'm very happy with them. It's really a meta question.

Greets

[Fatal]

Played a little against Pdingo using his Pyro Loam, there are some thoughts about:

- Dack is very nice - in proper matchups - in other its not that great IMO - maybe split with Liliana ?
- some Abrupt Decay MD should be considered against deck with nasty enchantments - Miracle (Helm varation mostly), Moon effects
- Jace is nice but I think its too overcosted on this deck running cheap creatures and spells to get a value. I would rather put Liliana or an other creature Vendilion was very good - consider Delver.

[Pdingo]

Hei Fatal
Nice that you join the Disscussion.

-So to Dack. Dack is very nice, because they have to handle him. The +1 is very nice i think and we can discard usless Cards. So when he stay we can survive a lot. ;)
I never would cut a Dack Fayden. I like 2.

@ Lili, i was thinking about her, but black is just the Splash. You can test her if you want. But i think Dack and Jace are better in this List.

@Jace, He is too good for me, i was thinking to cut 1 but i realized he's a Jace and very good in this List. But of course it's Meta depended. You can cut him for a Clique or a Decay.

@Decay I think you can Play a Decay Main. But against a UWR Miracle list decay isn' so nice. Well to handle a RIP is the best Play you can do but i dont board them in. I would prefer Decay against Goyfs or Delver.
But i very like it in the Sideboard. And against the Card like Blood Moon we have to Play a Fast Clock with shaman and PYromancer. But it's the Same Problem with BUG List.Of Course we have Counter, Discard and other Hate like Decay but sometimes we have to accept him and Play a G2 or G3. And Blood Moon is not that Common.

Thanks for Join and Test the Lists;)

Greets Pdingo